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.net again, for a change

"that 20 MB runtime is a real showstopper. Yes, this is an advantage to Delphi. I'm starting to suspect that Microsoft doesn't care -- they are perfectly happy to have a development environment that is excellent for internal/corporate applications, where they don't compete, but borderline useless for shipping, commercial, shrinkwrap, where they do compete."

Or maybe they don't care because everyone "should" be using XP or W2K at the very least according to MS, and it won't cost much to bundle the run time in as part of XP SP1 or W2K SP3.

Rob Moir
Tuesday, April 23, 2002

The first thing I did after installing XP was to use "Start/All Programs/Windows Update" to download 11.2 MB of updates, including "critical" ones: painless, iff you have a broadband connection.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, April 23, 2002

That's funny. The first thing I did after installing Windows 98 a few months ago was to re-install Windows 95. Only twice ever did I have problems related tor running Win95.

1) some DHTML editor I wanted to evaluate would only run on Windows 98 and up
2) the latest MS Media Player, which used to run on Windows 95, but no longer does. That thing was resource hog anyway

Otherwise, it's faster and I like the UI better. I also only upgraded to Windows 95 from Windows 3.1 in 1998.... Maybe I'll move to XP in 2010.

Anyone with a website that gets a significant number of hits can do a browser sniff (perhaps your log files already capture this) to see who's using what OS.

A site like Google or Amazon would have less a more homogenious population than, say, Joel on Software, which appeals to windows developers who are more likely to have, well, windows, and probably newer versions of Windows.

On the other hand, if Joel wants to know whether or not people are using XP so he can move to .net, since much of his user base visiting his site (even if their clients aren't), perhaps the stats he gets this way can help him in his decision.

MarkTAW
Tuesday, April 23, 2002

Mark, if you're a developer, you'll find Windows 2000 a better platform than Windows 95. (Or Windows NT 4 if you insist :-) ).

Frederik Slijkerman
Tuesday, April 23, 2002

I use windows NT 4 @ work and I love it, though I hear we're going to be upgraded to 2000 in september.

Most people complain that we're so behind the times, but for a corporation I think it makes sense to use an older OS that has more of the bugs ironed out.

This is another consideration when thinking about moving to .net, though most corporations have their employees on a t1 and lock down NT so you can't install anything anyway. In other worse, those who could install a .net app would have no problem with a 20+mb install file. Everyone else will have tech support do it for them.

MarkTAW
Tuesday, April 23, 2002

Delphi apps don't have a separate 20MB runtime, but they do have a chunk of VCL code baked into the .EXE file. Last time I checked, which was admittedly several years ago, a bare minimum Delphi app was 1.5 MB.

If you download enough separate apps, I would think that libraries linked into the .EXE would more or less even out an up-front 20MB download.

Adam Vandenberg
Tuesday, April 23, 2002

A "Hello, World" Delphi application is about 300 K, which is roughly equal to the VCL footprint. If you include images and so on, the EXE is likely to grow. A 100,000+ line program I'm working on is about 2.5 MB now.

I think Joel's point is that (some) people would have to download the 20 MB runtime just to install *your* program. Which could be a reason for them to look elsewhere.

Frederik Slijkerman
Wednesday, April 24, 2002

Adam Vandenberg wrote:
"Last time I checked, which was admittedly several years ago, a bare minimum Delphi app was 1.5 MB."

A basic app with a form, a button and a edit box saying Hello world is 385KB in Delphi 6. An small application is between 500KB and 1MB. The real win comes when going to full sized apps. No trolling or Joel trashing intended (CityDesk is way cool), but if CityDesk were programmed in Delphi with DBISAM database support, it would have been less than 3MB instead of 7.8MB and required zero (=0) dll/activeX's. Off course that could be even less using assembler/[any other low level language] but that would take the rapid out of RAD.

Personally, I love Joel when he says that Delphi is finished [thanks for the cover!], because it will keep the competition on the less efficient development environments. So competitors please do use .NET. I love to see those 20MB+ downloads, which do not run on old computers, next to my 1.7MB one. Go .NET go!

Jan Derk
Wednesday, April 24, 2002

On the flip side of the coin, there's a certain stigma associated with having a 1.7 MB executable instead of a 20 MB install package. Lots of users (myself often included) will look at a 1.7 MB executable and say "what features cant _that_ possibly have."

Many people perceive the larger install package as containing 20 MB of features. Of course, they could be wrong, and I'm not making any commentary supporting bulkier apps just for the sake of bigness. Since most apps are developed in VC++ of VB, the size of the install package is usually a pretty good indication of feature set. People aren't used to Delphi's smaller sizes. This is especially the case with power users, who actually know a little about an average application's download time.

Benji Smith
Wednesday, April 24, 2002

> there's a certain stigma associated with having a 1.7 MB
> executable instead of a 20 MB install package.

That's an interesting phenomenon.  When I had a recent demo at an Apple convention, one of the Apple admins remarked in front of others, how many lines of code does your application have?  I always felt there were too many lines of code, but raised an eyebrow and said I had no idea, leading them to laugh at the implication that there were so many I've lost count.

Somehow, there's this whole macho idea which "power users" have that bloat is impressive.  I guess good Downloadable Bloat would be considered around 5 megs, and I should add in noise data to pump applications up to that sweet spot.

BTW, I liked that admin & thought he was smart, so this is no reflection on him. ;-)

battle for stalingrad
Wednesday, April 24, 2002

<b>bold</b> test <I>slanty</i>

Banana Fred
Monday, May 13, 2002

i'm not sure why but whenever i zip a delphi app i get at least a 50% smaller filesize.  i zip all my delphi apps now before distribution

Andrew
Sunday, August 17, 2003

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