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Simple question.

Why does anyone visit this site?
Please do not say it is Joel's opinion, and writtings because they are misleading, wrong and not informative.
His articles might sound right because he uses references, that on the surface validate his arguments, but after some thought you realize that he is way wrong and he missed the whole point. Exactly like microsoft deceptive marketing, they sound like they know what they are talking about but all they are telling you are lies.

George
Saturday, April 13, 2002

You might wonder why I visit this site?
I came to this site from a link and started reading around and really didn't like what i have read.
I didn't appreciate the strong opinions that Joel has on many subjects and the way he's misleading people and how confident he is with his opinions.

George
Saturday, April 13, 2002

The real question is, why are YOU visiting this site. If you don't like what is being discussed here, don't bother dropping by, isn't that the beauty of the Internet?

Ben
Saturday, April 13, 2002

I've been visiting this site because I find that I agree with a lot of what Joel says, and I appreciate the thoughtful discussion and lack of trolling that's been prevalent here.

Sadly, the tragedy of the commons is starting to rear its ugly head again.

Mike Gunderloy
Saturday, April 13, 2002

My first visit came after reading Joel's opinion on rewriting program from scatch.  Ever since, I got additive to this site, mostly because of his opinions and the forum.  I also happen to agree on most of his views on software development, and his book shelf.  I am planning have my own copy of each books if my budget permits.  Of course, I also plan to study them all.

Maybe, because I am a final-year CS student, it is good to  hear from other developers who are already in the industry.

I shamlessly admit I visit this site-forum at least 10 times a day just to see any body has anything interesting to say.  You can say I am a Joeler.

Ray
Saturday, April 13, 2002

I come here because I find Joel's writing to be informative and insightful. I find the (previously) low number of trolls refreshing. I come because this is one of the last refuges of intelligent commentary.

If you have a specific problem, cite what you disagree with. Otherwise, don't waste my bandwidth. I want my 10 seconds back (that i took to read your 'post').

Mike Swieton
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Because most of the time it inspires me.

Richard Caetano
Saturday, April 13, 2002

For me it is this:  Good writing is rare.  Good writing about software and the industry is rarer still.  Joel delivers on both.  What is unique is his willingness to share his insights, to explain how he came by them, and to build his company based on those insights right in front of our eyes.

We all know that no one has a lock on the truth.  We all know that perfect stategies don't exist and the best strategies must change.  We all gain when we can use Joel's writing as a basis to expose weaknesss and strengths.  We might find something here that keeps us out of big trouble.

tk
Saturday, April 13, 2002

it was the relative lack of trolling.
oops, never mind i guess....

Razib Khan
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Why do I visit Joel's site?

1) He's articulate.  Unlike much of what I try to read on the web, Joel's articles do not require wholesale grammatical reconstruction before I can excavate the point.

2) He has interesting perspectives on problems that I face every working day.  Some of his opinions I agree with; others I don't.  But even those things he writes that seem off-kilter are carefully reasoned, and force me to think through what I believe.

3) Readers' comments on his articles are (usually) as well-thought-out as the articles themselves.

Finally, if you want to understand why people read Joel, do this.  Pick one of his articles that you disagree with.  Write your own article explaining why.  Be sure to use plenty of practical, real-life examples to support your claims.  And try to write with a modicum of humor and style.  It's not as easy as it looks.

Bob Perlman
Saturday, April 13, 2002

I wonder how many of you would apply what Joel suggests.
Good writting about the software industry!
Am I missing something?

For those of you who think that Joel writtings are so great, ask yourself this question do you find yourseld applying and using his advise? Does it work?

Beside the obvious things that Joel wrote that doesn't require a genious to discover.

George
Saturday, April 13, 2002

>Good writting about the software industry!

I'm not sure it's worth arguing about good writing when you cannot spell "writing."

Chris
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Great site, sometimes I disagree with Joel, sometimes not, I am happy for anybody to have an opinion, if they are prepared to share it, so much the better.
Also there are lots of other people contributing something in the way of discussion, and sometimes it can be interesting. A few links that other people have mentioned in this site have helped me solve real world problems too.

Mike, I hope you are wrong about the law of commons, perhaps the best response to this empty shallow thread was no response.

Tony
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Oh, and by the way George, Clearly you are not a "genious".

Tony
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Why not? Are there any site of its kind which is much better? I am willing to go there too.

For the "misleading" thing, well, Joel is not Nazi. He won't delete your post if you criticise his ideas. So if he really makes a mistake, people like you will probabily point it out. So I don't think it's really a big problem.

Sam Wong
Saturday, April 13, 2002

There is a nice collection of bright, thoughtful, and friendly people here.  Until recently there were not many assholes.

I do think the single column format helps with the recent influx of nitwits.  It is easy to skim through the whole discussion and skip over trollish or terminally embittered crap.

Of course, sometimes you find yourself responding to it anyway.

Matt Conrad
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Please, make a weblog.  I'll visit. 

It's much better form than just sniping.  We all understand that we must be intelligent and think for ourselves.

Janos M.
Saturday, April 13, 2002

Now I understand why there hasn't been any posts to the City Desk forum today...

Guy Bjerke
Sunday, April 14, 2002

informative articles.

different perspecives.

Affiliate program:-)

Prakash S
Sunday, April 14, 2002

meant perspectives.

Prakash S
Sunday, April 14, 2002

George, there are 100,000's of forums where you could post your query. What is it about this discussion that riles you? What's your background?

Hugh Wells
Sunday, April 14, 2002

I, too, have become "addicted" to Joel's site and look at it several times a day.  Here's what I like about Joel On Software.

It is a great place to find "big picture" discussions about programming.  I am a brand-new programmer.  I know next to nothing, and I spend my days mucking around in tremendously complex systems and fixing tiny little problems and trying to learn as much as I can.  It's nice to step back from these little things I work on and get a sense of what the big issues in programming are, what kind of skills make good programmers, and the sort of competence I should be aiming for.

Joel's essays and the discussions here, with the comments of people like Mark W and Mike Gunderloy and Jutta Jordans and Bella, makes the site tremendously enlightening for a new programmer, even if I don't understand 90% of what you all are talking about.

It seems that only a few people are interested in this sort of big-picture thinking.  Joel, whether or not you agree with his ideas, does a great service by articulating his ideas carefully and inviting us to agree or disagree with him.  How could anyone have a problem with Joel putting together a website, posting his ideas, and ALSO offering a discussion forum?

So, George, I have a question for you.  How can you have a problem with Joel's sharing his ideas with us -- and with the fact that he has offered a forum where this great exchange of ideas takes place?  Your contempt for Joel doesn't make sense.

Do you resent Joel because you wish that you could articulate your ideas and share them publicly and have people discuss them, too?  Do you wish for the kind of esteem that Joel has earned?

I can only conclude that you despise people who are successful.

James
Sunday, April 14, 2002

aye to what  James says.

Prakash S
Sunday, April 14, 2002

It's interesting.

The chat boards are also valuable, because otherwise one reads only the musings etc. of developers that (a) write articles, and (b) the editors of the software press think are important.

Anecdotes have a big place in the development of a skill, and where else are you going to get them?

BTW: Joel and I have a past employer in common, and I've maintained his code. It was pretty good, and did not contain many of my 'pet peeves'. I like developers who are polite to the people coming in downstream, if you know what I mean. Most software work (at least 2/3) done in this country is maintenance, and keeping that in mind not only goes to the bottom line but enhances one's popularity as well.

skautsch
Sunday, April 14, 2002

George

I visit this site because I find Joel's articles well-written, entertaining, and thought-provoking - unlike your illiterate ramblings. Even if Joel is always mistaken - and you haven't bothered to provide a single example of this - he has provided a valuable service by making think through your own position, and you might even learn how to spell and punctuate properly.

I also find the forums entertaining, although of late the signal-to-noise ratio has been delining significantly. And as a added bonus, there are even some "Life of Brian" fans here. But really, if you don't find anything of value here, why don't you just go away, instead of adding even more to the noise?

Andrew Simmons
Sunday, April 14, 2002

Oh dear. On reviewing my last post, I find that I can't spell or punctuate any better than George can. But at least Joel is still there to show us the way.

Andrew Simmons
Monday, April 15, 2002

I don't think Joel's always right (I disagree with him on the "never re-write" thing, for example. There are times when it is the right move) but his ideas provoke discussion; they set me and other people thinking. And there isn't nearly enough people doing that in the software world.

The journey is the important thing, not whether everyone gets to the same destination.

Katie Lucas
Monday, April 15, 2002

Reading a well written article, wether or not I agree with the content, can be interesting, entertaining and educating. This is one reason for me to come back again and again. (I agree with many things Joel says, too).

The other reason is this forum, which has been a place to share opinions, ask questions (and get serious and helpful responses) and find new ideas for me ever since I started to participate.

It is my impression that the people participating here take this forum rather serious, as you, George, might notice, because even a rather negative and provoking post like yours gets sensible and serious responses. That is what I like this forum for (even though I'd rather see less "joel's sites bad" threads here, because I don't find them very constructive).

George, almost every single one of Joel's writings is discussed here. And not everything he writes is swallowed without criticism. Why don't you come back to take part in those discussions, proving your point.

Have fun,

Jutta Jordans
Monday, April 15, 2002

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