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Sun on Java...

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/09/1347215&mode=thread&tid=108

is the subject under discussion... A staggering admission if true. Opinions from the JoS crowd? Especially those who actually use it - or those like myself who are forced to use it at Uni...

Andrew Cherry
Sunday, February 09, 2003

Note that the memo deals only with the JRE on Solaris and not Java as such. That java needs alot of ram is hardly new to anyone though.

Id like to see the source of this text verified in some way before I start drawing conclusions.

Eric DeBois
Sunday, February 09, 2003

osnews covered this, and the quality/noise at osnews is more favourable than /.
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2737

Nice
Sunday, February 09, 2003

Is it even remotely possible that this is "fire and motion" by Sun.

For the last two years or so, all they do is look like they are falling apart.  McNealy blasts MS every chance he gets.  Gosling runs down .net at Java conference.  It looks like they are going know where fast.

Is Sun out of ideas and on the way out, or could they be working on someting really cool and this is their way of "mouth wide shut"?

Could I have worked more JOS isms into one post?  Probably not.

Sun rise or Sunset?
Sunday, February 09, 2003

It was mentioned on the Slashdot thread (although admittedly not a very trusted source in itself), that none of the names listed on the memo have Sun addresses, so at first it appears to be a hoax.

Roland Kaufmann
Sunday, February 09, 2003

With my systems guy hat on, they all ring very true - a client of mine has a key app that only works on one particular build of a 1.3.x series Sun JRE in a Solaris environment, because of known bugs in other versions.  They can't roll forward or backward, because of random breakage in the JREs.

Deploying Java is a big ol' schmozzle, and most people end up shipping their own JRE to make it work.

Rodger Donaldson
Sunday, February 09, 2003

>> It was mentioned on the Slashdot thread (although admittedly not a very trusted source in itself), that none of the names listed on the memo have Sun addresses, so at first it appears to be a hoax.

Someone doesn't know how to use search engines... I checked two of the names at random and found that they are working for Sun. Also, I know one of the guys personally.

But of course, it proves nothing and it still might be a hoax...

raindog
Sunday, February 09, 2003

It was obvious that Java was on the way out when Sun outsourced it to an Indian company. Really, you don't do that if you care about the product.


Sunday, February 09, 2003

This memo has an inconsistency with my experience.  I once distributed a stripped-down Java with an app, guarding against backwards-compat breaks.  Just look at the README in the JRE directory, which has legal info on this.

Tj
Sunday, February 09, 2003

strange, the general opposition I detect to java that floats through jos.

It seems that doing solaris management console in java, for example, is pointless - it isn't going to be portable because it is a _solaris_ management console!

Portable binaries on the other hand, that is the place to use java.

Nice
Monday, February 10, 2003

I dont agree. I get the feeling we have quite a few Java coders here.

I think what you are picking up on is a general lack of hype for anything really, which is why I keep returning here. There is no Yay-for-java thing going on, but there is no Boo-for-java either.
We had a breif period of Yay-for-dotnet though.

Java sure diddnt cure cancer or made peace on earth like Sun (almost ;) promised a few years ago. Neither will dotnet.

Its all about having the right tool for the job at hand... and about making a living.

Eric DeBois
Monday, February 10, 2003

I'm a java coder. I admit it.

Matthew Christensen
Monday, February 10, 2003

I program in Java. I love the language. I love the APIs (for the most part). But I'm not at all crazy about the JRE. And I don't like Swing. So I don't use Java for everything. But I consider it whenever I can.

And even if this memo is a hoax, it still covers many of the JRE problems that I'm aware of (though I've never worked directly with a Solaris environment). If this memo is from a Sun source, it would only show that Sun is having the same implementation problems as everyone else.

Benji Smith
Monday, February 10, 2003

This:
" While the Java VM (as demonstrated above) grows rapidly as more complex code is executed, the Python VM grows quite slowly. Indeed, an inventory control program written entirely in Python having a SQL database, a curses UI, and network connectivity requires only 1.7M of resident set. This seems to indicate that the resident set requirements of the JRE could be reduced by at least 80%."

and this:

http://www.artima.com/intv/speed.html

are why I don't like java.  The reality is that at work, I have to deal with java and so I do.  But I can't imagine actually using it to get something done.  I only willingly use that for which I am a fool...and a little c for speed's sake

fool for python
Monday, February 10, 2003

"We would generally prefer to deploy our applications in Java but the implementation provided for Solaris is inadequate to the task of producing supportable and reliable products."

"In personal conversations with Java engineers and managers, it appears that Solaris is not a priority and the resource issues are not viewed as serious. Attempts to discuss this have not been productive and the message we hear routinely from Java engineering is that new features are key and improvements to the foundation are secondary. This is mentioned only to make it clear that other avenues for change have been explored but without success. Here we seek to briefly present the problem and recommend a solution."

Granted, in the memo there are some issues with Java at large (e.g. backwards compatibility), but it mostly seems to be a matter of irritated developers for Solaris wondering why, if Java is such a great thing, they can't get better support for it within the organization that invented it.  Seems like a reasonable question, and the sort of situation many of us have experienced now and then.

Not to kill off speculation by getting back to the topic or anything...

Kyralessa
Tuesday, February 11, 2003

I think Java is an excellent educational tool.  Perhaps not everyone is involved in mission critical work.  I write interface code for exchanging xml files.  So it's not too hard, and Java is something I can wrap my mind around. 

Thinking in Java
Wednesday, February 12, 2003

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