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T1 line is outdated!!!!

It's funny to me, a T1 like is considered the ultimate connection in America.  Wow 1.5meg!  You go to most video sites and they ask you Modem?/DSL-Cable/T1?

Well, here in Japan DSL is $25 a month and it's 12MEGABIT! or 8 times faster than T1.  In Korea they are upto 24megabit DSL for the same price.  The biggest DSL provider in Japan is Yahoo.  http://bbpromo.yahoo.co.jp/

Yahoo is so agressive they stand around on the streets in front and around the busiest train/subway stations and eletronics stores and hand out FREE DSL MODEMS with 2 months of free service just to try them out.

100Megabit Fiber is available in 80% of the country for just $50 a month from about 6 different companies including NTT (the AT&T of Japan)

I write this hoping that the people in America will wake up and demand better access.  I feel like Ameican's don't understand that they are getting substandard service.  Especially when I keep hearing references to T1 lines for $1000 a month.

I fear that if America stays stuck at only a few percent *broadband* that in a few years, countries like Japan and Korea where the current generation of kids will grow up in an entirely broadband world are going to really understand the new world far better than their American counterparts.

Gregg Tavares
Thursday, February 06, 2003

Remember that many superior mathematicians and physicists came out of the old Soviet Union, and one cause of this was the lack of modern computer equipment in the USSR. Sic: the lack of modern infrastructure didn't prevent the most brilliant minds from developing, instead, the emphasis on "hand"  computing w/o calculators apparently encouraged the development of very strong technical minds.


On the other hand, it sounded like I just argued that we should abolish Pentiums and hand out Commodore-64s to our programmers. :-) But the bottom line is, I wouldn't worry about this "limiting" the development of new talent.


I guess this broadband disparity is evidence of several facts: the US is geographically much larger and much less densely populated than the countries that have cheap and universal broadband, which inhibits the development of "last mile" connections; and  the US has many telecommunications industry players and therefore our communications networks are much more heterogenous. Probably the same factors that cause other countries' wireless phone networks to be functionally superior and cheaper are at play here.

Besides - compare the *overall* cost of living in Japan with that in the US. Probably one could have their own T-1 line here in the US (even at prevailing tariffs) and *still* come out ahead of  their counterpart in Japan ... life isn't just cheap DSL.

Bored Bystander
Thursday, February 06, 2003

In the USA telecomunications evolves as the dozens of big players introduce new technology and try and steal customers from each other.

Competition, the way it is supposed to be.

Take a look at Australia, the way our telecommunications and technology infrastructure evolves is that a government commitee/minister has a chat with the 3 or 4 big vested interests who convince him that what benefits them is what's needed.

Richard Alston our communications minister was quoted last year as claiming that broadband access was mainly porn driven :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SENATOR RICHARD ALSTON: Well for example, people will tell you that pornography is one of the major reasons why there's been a high take-up rate in South Korea. I haven't confirmed that at first instance but I've been there, I've looked at what's happening. My scepticism has really been about whether there is any compelling national interest in the Government spending money on subsidising roll-outs to consumers. Because at the moment it's pretty much more of same but a bit faster for most consumers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm/956?show=replies
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before anyone starts feeling bad about the raw deal in the US of A imagine what it's like living in a mining and tourism subsidized nation where the normal laws of supply, competition and capitalism don't apply.

There is one big customer, who happens to be the regulator, who happens to be the legislator and who has no real technical understanding at all of anything, ever.

Innovation in Australia means waiting until a few competiting technologies have been tried in America for a few years and then picking one.

Literally, you can see ministers on television announcing the adoption of some new standard, pretending it's innovation when in fact all they did was 'choose' something.

Anyway, rant over.

Braid_ged.

braid_ged
Thursday, February 06, 2003

Well, as mentioned, for $26 us, I am getting about a 6mbit line.

700kB/sec = 6mbit.

However, I don't think what I get is the norm!

However,  your point is well taken. I would have to say that the high speed adoption of net in the USA is still very high compared to most places.

I have heard that Europe lags I this regards. However, I can’t really say for sure. This is just a guess off the top of my head.

Just about everyone I know now uses high speed net, and it is reasonability priced.

Most homes with any kids and a few computers now has high speed net and a hub (those hubs are well under 100$ right now).  Europe has not yet jumped on the high speed net to such a large degree.

On the other hand, some places are getting much higher speeds when you talk about high speed net.

The general home ADSL in my town is rated up to 1.5 mbits.

That means you see max down load speeds of about 175kb/s

With my high speed cable, I see in general about 600kb/s and that is a good 5 mbits.  Some get up to 850kb/s

With some cities adopting newer equipment, I expect to see higher rates yet. I suspect that the adoption rate is the USA for high speed is still higher then most Counties right now. However, the average high speed net in the USA may not be as “fast” as some other countries.

I would still guess that the USA leads in terms of adoption rates for high speed. Both total, and as a %.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Kallal@msn.com

Albert D. Kallal
Friday, February 07, 2003

Population density is one of the key differences between telecommunications in Japan / Korea and the US. Ther high densities allow them to implement these systems very cost-effectively.

Nick
Friday, February 07, 2003

"I write this hoping that the people in America will wake up and demand better access."

Then why not write it somewhere more appropriate, like discuss.fogcreek.us or something.


Friday, February 07, 2003

Korea and Japan, as outlined, have very good access.  And they have really invested on it.

The US is a hotch-potch of competition, rather like their mobile phones.  Ah well.

Over here in Europe, good internet is easy and cheap in the cities.  Except maybe for Britian, which just isn't investing in it.

Here is Sweden modern housing often has 10baseT jacks in every flat.  My connection is so fast, I don't even need to measure it.  For $20 a month too.  Maybe I'm lucky.  I just take it for granted ;-)

Nice
Friday, February 07, 2003

Britain is mostly pretty backward when it comes to this stuff but $1000 for 1.5MB is ridiculous.

For about $60 a month I can get 1MB from the company that provides my cable TV.

Daniel Earwicker
Friday, February 07, 2003

I live in a semi-rural area in South East England. About 5 miles from a large town and 50 miles from London

The best connection I am offered (without leasing a line) is a 56K dialup (connects at 48K) which is more than $20 a month and cuts me off religiously every 2 hours.

ADSL (500K up, 128K down - but with contention means potentially a lot lower) is not available in a large chunk of the UK and without legislation will not become available as the incumbent BT will not convert exchanges if it is not deemed economically viable for them to do so.

Thing is I don't really have a need for speed at the moment apart from the occasional software download but at this point it becomes an extreme annoyance.

I can foresee a time in the future when house prices are affected by the availability of broadband!

Gwyn
Friday, February 07, 2003

To some extent you're comparing apples (home, consumer bandwidth) and oranges (office connectivity). The home services are priced assuming one family clicking on the web a bit for an hour every night. The office services are priced based on hosting websites and email servers, and with an office full of people all surfing from 9 to 5.

The usual way this is enforced is that DSL and Cable lines only give you one IP address and even that is dynamically assigned, in part to keep you from running web servers and the like which require a fixed IP address.

That said, we'll probably switch to business DSL for our new office, which will be a lot less than a T1, I think around $250/month for the office with a handful of static IP addresses. It's still a better deal than a T1, but I wouldn't do it if we didn't have our important servers in a 100%-uptime facility.

Joel Spolsky
Friday, February 07, 2003

Its even less than $250 these days. I've seen 1.5mb for $199 (with a two year comit).

Marc
Friday, February 07, 2003

Joel

Direct question - do you moderate these boards? If so, what criteria? Moving on ....

I have a post from yesterday mysteriously disappeared. Maybe the moderator thought my claims for the charges by Colt Telecom http://www.colt-telecom.co.uk for broadband were too outrageous to be true.

Still, I have posted a copy of the December invoice
http://www.tapiwa.com/images/colt.jpg . I have erase blacked out a couple of identifying details, but as you will see for yourself, the invoice, for a 2meg pipe, for one month is £1 166.67 or £14k per annum.

That works out to about us$1900 per month!

tapiwa
Friday, February 07, 2003

I think some people may be a bit confused here.  In most reasonbly sized cities in the US, you can get a pretty fast connection (500K-1Mb+) for $50/month or less.  The main limiting factor here is geography, the US is just spread out far more than countries like Japan and Korea, and technology like DSL only provides high speed access over a short range (plus, laying the infrastructure to support it is pretty expensive, I imagine). 

What Joel is talking about is high reliability commercial connections, which as you can see they charge through the roof for.  My cable internet access is plenty fast, fast enough that I don't bother to measure, but I would never think to use it in a high reliability situation because it just isn't good enough for that.

Anyway, in summary reasonably fast broadband access is available for pretty low prices in the US, mostly limited by geography.  High reliability business connections are considerably more expensive

Mike McNertney
Friday, February 07, 2003

"My cable modem is fast, but I'd never use it for a high reliability site"

Why not?

I've had a cablemodem connection for three and a half years now. It's been down three times - two hours, ten hours, and two days. I've heard of plenty of T1's and SDSL connections being down either more often, for longer periods, or both.

If I could get SDSL in as a backup (dual providers -> redundancy) then I'd have no problems hosting commercial webwork out of my basement. And I'd be doing it for less than 1/6 the cost of a T1.

However, with a T1 what you are paying for is bandwidth as well as (ostensibly) reliability - in theory with a T1 you get 1.5Mbit all the way to the internet backbone, while with cable or DSL you get your bandwidth to the first "hub" where you're in contention with your entire neighborhood.

Also realize that a LOT of the sub-$75/month plans have "no server" clauses - the contract does not allow running servers on the line. Some ISP's actively probe server ports and warn subscribers if they have a webserver or (more likely) mail server running. Other ISP's watch bandwidth - start using too much upstream and you get a nastygram...

Philo

Philip Janus
Monday, February 10, 2003

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