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Joel, don't take the bait!

http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backIssues/2002/01/10

Just proves you're consistent.

Patrick Breitenbach
Thursday, January 10, 2002

Hear hear, bravo etc.
Do not be intimidated by the solipsistic and egocentric one.

John Styles
Thursday, January 10, 2002

Remember that Joel On Software can still be found at http://joel.editthispage.com/ which is owned by Dave Winer and is a free service.

Joel has used (and still using) a free service by someone he wants to take some business from.

I think a nice public "thank you" note and a link can help.

I remember when Dave used the free icons designed by Zeldman and didn't give him any credit for them. He (Dave) was flooded with protesting letters and then he did credit Jeffrey for the icons. Joel should do the same.

Hanan Cohen
Thursday, January 10, 2002

> nslookup joel.editthispage.com
Server:  localhost
Address:  127.0.0.1

Non-authoritative answer:
Name:    joel.editthispage.com
Address:  64.243.120.212

> nslookup 64.243.120.212
Server:  localhost
Address:  127.0.0.1

Name:    manila.fogcreek.net
Address:  64.243.120.212

So actually it looks like Dave doesn't really host Joel's site.  He must forward the DNS requests to fogcreek.net (but looks like Joel doesn't even use manila to create his site anymore - I'm pretty sure he uses CityDesk).

Here's a rather germaine quote from
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html

"Watch out when your competition fires at you. Do they just want to force you to keep busy reacting to their volleys, so you can't move forward?"

Honestly though, CD and Radio have two different target audiences, so I'm not sure why Dave is getting all upset.

John Dixon
Thursday, January 10, 2002

I gave Zeldman copious credit every damned time I used his icons. I have no idea what you're talking about. Joel <i>is</i> cheap with the links. I finally caught on to this after he started competing, which is fine, and it's also OK if he wants to be cheap. Also we absolutely did host his site, <a href="http://www.userland.com/mostReadSites">1,689,109 page reads worth of free hosting</a>, and I believe we gave him a free copy of Frontier to run his Manila sites on his servers. With no regrets.

I also wrote the foreword to his book. I will continue to point to Joel because he's a great writer and a smart man, but he's gotten a rep for being cheap with the links, and he deserves it and if he wants to be part of the Web, he should get with the flow and do it the Web way. I'm doing him a favor by making a small fun issue of this.

Dave Winer
Thursday, January 10, 2002

And what kind of dorky DG doesn't let you put a href's in your posts! Ouch.

http://www.userland.com/mostReadSites

Dave Winer
Thursday, January 10, 2002

This is dumb for two reasons:

1. Joel did link to dave TWICE yesterday:
http://davenet.userland.com/2001/07/06/theMicroChannelArchitecture
http://radiodiscuss.userland.com/soap

So as usual, Winer is just whining for no reason.

2. I like the fact that Joel's site has actual content instead of trying to be an accumulator of content from elsewhere.  People link to Joel because he creates content.  There isn't a need for him to participate in the "i'll link to you if you link to me" backscratching that goes on with all the weblogs today.

Take for instance the grand scheme of Dave's awards.  Note how at the same time that Radio is released he invents a whole new award, and then releases the results slowly over the course of a week.  I think its actually a grand PR scheme (and a good one at that) which has generated a lot of traffic for Dave at a critical time.  Then when Dave says Site X won an award, Site X links to him and he gets all kind of traffic.

Whatever... at least Joel HAS a DG where people can post about him, and he accepts criticism, unlike Dave, who deletes it.

tom
Thursday, January 10, 2002

> And what kind of dorky DG doesn't let you put a href's in your posts! Ouch.

what parts of "Do not use HTML tags" and "Surround URLs with spaces" do you have trouble understanding?

Antonymous
Thursday, January 10, 2002

I see -- Joel has acquired a full contingent of wiener boys. What do you guys do for entertainment?

Have a great day. Joel's from NY, I've had dinner with him at Katz's and he can take it.

Party on dudes!

Dave Winer
Thursday, January 10, 2002

What does 'wiener' mean?

Ged Byrne
Friday, January 11, 2002

Quote:
what parts of "Do not use HTML tags" and "Surround URLs with spaces" do you have trouble understanding?

Joel did say that nobody would read it.

Ged Byrne
Friday, January 11, 2002

a)  If backlinks are the problem, Joel should link to:
[ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&num=30&q=link:W-LH8M_iRAEC:www.joelonsoftware.com/ ]
which shows pages which link to him.

Alternately, we could replace the Web with Xanadu, if it's really important to you.
[ http://xanadu.com/ ]

b)  If Dave can take enormous armadas of criticism for just being himself, Joel can take it too when Dave needs soemone to dish it back out on.  [ http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/winer_0900.html ]

c)  "We made you, Joel.  We MADE you, Joel.  Now we were thinking, 'Why don't he link back to us no more?'  We talk about you, but you've clearly forgotten your Family.  The Community.  Now, let's go to old Katz's, away from your damn Wiener Boys, and take a little time to rethink things.

"And NEVER forget schoolyard rules, especially when you're still in the fuckin' Schoolyard..."

d)  What do we do for entertainment?  Well I dunno, some of us write posts while downloading intellectual property via Gnutella.  In fact, I tried searching for Dave Winer, but all I came up with was some weblog software.

e)  Funny how this came along right after Joel mourned the loss of another 'Dave' on the front page.  Coincidence?  I think not!

Sammy
Friday, January 11, 2002

Who's Dave to dictate what "formula" to follow for someone's personal site? I visit Joel's site religiously because he writes damn good stuff. There are other sites I visit because they have pointers to good stuff. Why should everyone's web site be the same?

This is a personal site. There is no formula. A weblog is about freedom of expression. Joel writes intelligent articles, and that's enough for me. It's obviously enough for other people too, going by the statistics Dave has mentioned. And no, I'm not his sidekick or his right hand man either.

As someone has already pointed out, much of "weblogging community" is one big linkwhoring racket. It's something like this:


----

Day 1

BloggerX: I like pasta. BloggerY (hyperlink) should discover the pleasures of a good carbonara sauce.

BloggerY: BloggerX (hyperlink) thinks I should eat more pasta. Ha! If only BloggerX ate healthier Chinese food. Ever tried rice noodles, BloggerX?

Day 2

BloggerX: BloggerY thinks Chinese food is healthier than pasta. Does he know how much MSG they use in that stuff?

BloggerY: BloggerX is concerned about MSG? Did you know about the harm done by MSG? Let me know (hyperlink).

Day 3

Blogger Z: BloggerX (hyperlink) and BloggerY (hyperlink) are arguing over whether Italian or Chinese food is healthier. I prefer Chinese myself. What do you think? Take the poll:

Which cuisine is healthier:

1) Chinese
2) Italian
3) They're both healthy
4) They're both unhealthy
5) I don't care

----

BloggerX links to BloggerY, and then BloggerY links back to BloggerX, and they all stroke each other's egos.

Bah! No thanks, I can do without such links from Joel.

Lastly, at least Joel's site HAS a discussion group. And what's more, the quality of discussion is higher than many other sites I've seen. No slashdot crap here.

MadMan
Friday, January 11, 2002

What is it exactly about Winer that makes people want to make ad hominem attacks?  I even briefly entertained explaining that 'wiener boy' was derived from 'Winer's boy,' but I caught myself in time.

Well, I hope everyone gets their offtopic ya-yas out here.  It's such a little thing, Winer's criticism in this instance.  Unimportant.

Richard Jenkins
Friday, January 11, 2002

Winer's criticism actually is educational.  The "blogging" culture is apparently about keeping a fairly strong subgraph within the wider WWW graph, only occasionally referring outside.

I suppose this is a sort of "dinner party," and since Joel is associated with these weblogs, it struck these people as odd and vaguely antisocial that he did not connect back to them.

This analysis might sound obvious to bloggers, but I'm used to very centralized sites where this does not happen.  I wonder if this emergent property will have a prominent effect on the web, affecting sites such as Google.  No doubt peculiar properties of networks, such as n^2 effects, will start to manifest strongly as the web takes form.

Anon
Friday, January 11, 2002

Although there's a multitude of reasons to knock Dave Winer off his pedestal, I am personally grateful for the good content that Dave has introduced me to.

I would probably never have heard of Joel (or Camworld, or Webword, etc.) if not for Scripting.com.  I try to keep this in mind whenever I feel rubbed the wrong way by Dave's agenda. Gotta put on your special Dave-filters.

Ed O'C
Friday, January 11, 2002

This thread should be deleted as it is irrelevant.

Tony
Friday, January 11, 2002


There is no real reason to delete any thread, IMHO.

Leonardo Herrera
Saturday, January 12, 2002

There are no irrelevancies, only undiscovered connections.

Simon Lucy
Saturday, January 12, 2002

Threads are irrelevant

Seven Of Nine
Saturday, January 12, 2002

Revelatory threads lead graciously
Into thoughts considered.
For others the Next button
Shouts.

Simon Lucy
Monday, January 14, 2002

You're irrelevant!  I'm irrelevant!  This whole court's irrelevant!

Paul Brinkley
Monday, January 14, 2002

Winer is irrelevant!

Jake
Tuesday, January 15, 2002

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