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Best Computer Science Schools in the World

In a recent thread, Joel wrote this:

"It helps to know that the Indian Institute of Technology is so unbelievably selective that almost no MIT grad would pass the entrance exam :) "

I always thought that the best schools were in the U.S. or in Great Britain. 

If, indeed, it is the case that IIT is more 'selective' than MIT, is it, in fact, 'better' than MIT, Stanford or CMU?  I find this hard to believe.

anon
Monday, January 13, 2003

I seem to recall reading in a Salon Magazine article that the entrance exam to IIT is so hard that American Ph.D.s in the sciences have a difficult time passing it. 

Here's the article:
http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/12/06/indian/index.html

programmer
Monday, January 13, 2003

If you live in india, you are fucked anyway, so what difference does it make? So you can say you have the world's best CS education, but you are making $4/hr? Great!  It is harder to get into a lot of schools than it is to get into MIT... Tokyo university, the grande Ecoles in Paris come to mind ... However, outside of getting a high ranking government job in Japan or France, no one really cares.

meathead
Monday, January 13, 2003

Hmm...most of the IIT grads work abroad for very good salaries.  Also, consider that India's population is ~4x that of the US.

globalist
Monday, January 13, 2003

It's funny reading that Salon article.. It just oozes that pre-bubble optimism.. I had to check the date.  Sure enough.. 1999.

Michael H. Pryor
Monday, January 13, 2003

actually, i just read the salon article, and apologize for being uh... such a "meathead."  ;-)

starting your own semiconductor empire is one thing, going to school for computer science is another thing altogether. I'm not sure why people have sticks up their butts about going to a good "CS" school, when the most money to be made in programming is in the most boring, least CS-oriented parts of programming. 

You could toil away in winston's AI course at MIT, getting rocked by  LISP,  crying yourself to sleep, and getting a shitty job at CURL upon graduation, or you could have gone to the university of north dakota, worked on accounting software for great plains, and been a part of the $1.1 billion dollar stock deal with microsoft. "Choose Wisely."

meathead
Monday, January 13, 2003

Best school:  University of Illinois, that's where the HAL 9000 was made...

Nat Ersoz
Monday, January 13, 2003

> If you live in india, you are fucked anyway, so what difference does it make? So you can say you have the world's best CS education, but you are making $4/hr? Great!

Yea it is great b/c rent costs you $50/mo.  You can live like  a king on $4 a day.  Have you ever heard of "Cost of living" adjustments? 

Bella
Monday, January 13, 2003

Hi Guys. I'm originally from India,working in Canada as a Software Developer. I have given the IIT entrance exam , and it has been the toughest exam of my life. You have to prepare 2 years or more to get it, and they only select 3000 out of 200,000 examinees, only about 1.5%

I wrote the exam prepared 2 years for it in grade 11 and 12.(Normally you write the exam after grade 12).You are tested on Maths,Physics and Chemistry.It is so tought that if you secure 50%, you can get in, but even getting that is difficult.Basically you need solid concepts and raw intellect to get in.My rank was 3847, so I just missed getting in,
but I am still proud of my achievment, would like to put it on a resume, but nobody, would notice much in North America.
Basically if you get in IIT Comp Sci, only first 100 or so people do, you are set for life, Microsoft alone picks up 30% of these grads.
Since the acceptance rate is 2% or so, it's much tougher than MIT to get in.But an IIT grad is a level of distinction.
In our grade 12 class at high school,only 2 out of 100 students qualified, and they were near geniuses.

sumit
Monday, January 13, 2003

>> Yea it is great b/c rent costs you $50/mo.  You can live like  a king on $4 a day.  Have you ever heard of "Cost of living" adjustments?                          

Adjust all you want - it is still India. I'll gladly kick out the extra $450 a month for working plumbing and fewer dead bodies in the street.

also, your math sucks. $50/m at $4 an hour isn't too much different than $500/m at $40 an hour, which is your typical westernized ASP.NET writing bozo with a degree from anywhere.

meathead
Monday, January 13, 2003

Who the hell told you that there are dead bodies in the street?Have you ever gone to India?Nobody dies on the street, as for plumbing, well it is available for a large percentage of the population, but go provide plumbing for a billion people, it ain't that easy.

The amazing thing is that the country works at all, and it's the biggest democracy in the world. Go see how the US would do if it had a billion people, instead of around the 250 million.India has 26 official languages, plus a hundred dialects.If I travelled 150 miles from where I live, I would be in another state with a different langauge, fortunately we have english for communication.
There might be a lot of things wrong with India, but dead bodies are not one of them.

sumit
Monday, January 13, 2003

meathead -> i just can't believe the amoutn of racism u display... you even said it yourself, you're a meathead!

Wei
Monday, January 13, 2003

" Yea it is great b/c rent costs you $50/mo.  You can live like  a king on $4 a day.  Have you ever heard of "Cost of living" adjustments?  "

Dear Bella,
                Have you ever lived in India, or spent a long period of time there. I spend three months every year in Sri Lanka which is comparable (the GNP is somewhat higher but not a great deal).

                  We can leave aside the comfort of what you will get for $50 a month, but it will not be anywhere near where the best work is. Mumbai office rents for example are actually 80% of those in midtown New York. I doublt if Bangalore is bargain basement price either  You certainly ought to think of a rent nearer $200 a month than $50. Remember that commuting is likely to ve a nightmare. Moreover, bear in mind that there are some cost of living adjustments that you have to make upwards. My dial up internet connection in Sri Lanka is now down to $10 a month, but I still have to pay the local phone charges  (which vary immensley but for heavy use appear to range from 30 cents to $4 an hour depending on the time of day). A computer will cost you double what it does in the States, and the cost of any kind of electrical appliance is higher for equvalent quality. Cars are not much cheaper than the States, and anything resembling a standard European or American saloon is likely to have a 100% markup. Books published in India will be 20-30% of the price elsewhere, but there is a much more limited choice, and that is still a large chunk of your salary.

I had a friend who was getting $17,000 a year here in Saudi go back to his university job in India at a salary of about $6,000 but he was the exception.

Dear Meathead,
                        " It is harder to get into a lot of schools than it is to get into MIT... Tokyo university, the grande Ecoles in Paris come to mind ... However, outside of getting a high ranking government job in Japan or France, no one really cares. "

                        I don't get you. You go to the two places you mention and more or less what into a better career than you get when you leave any American university (unless your Dad owns the company you're going to work in) and you say "who cares/"


                      " also, your math sucks. $50/m at $4 an hour isn't too much different than $500/m at $40 an hour, which is your typical westernized ASP.NET writing bozo with a degree from anywhere. "

                      Where you get $40 an hour rents are likely to be a lot higher than the $500 a month you mention. In much of the States that will get you a trailer home (if you're lucky - in "Nickel and Diming"  Barbara Ferguson saiid that when she took on the project of working for low pay in American she never realized she never thought she would that becoming trailer trash would be a jump up the social ladder). It won't get you anything in London, or much in the South East either.

" You could toil away in winston's AI course at MIT, getting rocked by  LISP,  crying yourself to sleep, and getting a shitty job at CURL upon graduation, or you could have gone to the university of north dakota, worked on accounting software for great plains, and been a part of the $1.1 billion dollar stock deal with microsoft. "Choose Wisely."

              The average programmer has very little control over the money (if any) that the application he is working on for a large company will fetch. I doubt if they are increased by going to crappy universities. Remember to drop out of Harvard you have to get in there in the first place.

Stephen Jones
Monday, January 13, 2003

I doubt you'd see many of the dead bodies in the street as they tend to be eaten by witches before long:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/030112/43/1zzph.html

anon
Monday, January 13, 2003

This thread makes me want to kill myself. So bleak is the future, or at least, the one you will live in.

FutureBoy
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Well these are tribespeople, they were the original inhabitants of the country long before the aryan invasion.
A lot of things happen in villages, there are 600,000 of them.By the way Jharkhand is one of the richest mineral producing regions of India, producing more than half the countries iron ore and coal.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"Adjust all you want - it is still India. I'll gladly kick out the extra $450 a month for working plumbing and fewer dead bodies in the street."

Its really disappointing to see this kind of comment from ppl in 'Information' business !!!

India has already identified as one of the major player in IT industry and continues to dominate..

and its not only the IT we are talking here.
Check out latest business today to find out more .
http://www.business-today.com/btoday/20030119/index.html?

Regards,
JD
A Proud Indian

JD
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

And now a word from our African computer scientists...

When next you're feeling all depressed about the burst bubble, check out some of the emerging markets in the world. IMHO, earning lots of money is cool because it enhances your quality of life. If you live somewhere like South Africa, where the cost of living is lower, but the infrastructure and quality of life are high (great weather, beautiful scenery, wide open spaces, friendly people, lots of consumer goods), you don't have to earn huge amounts of dollars to have a great life.

I studied at the University of Cape Town. I work for a South African software house with offices all over the world. I have worked with developers from the US and UK (amongst others) and I think I have a really good degree comparatively. Microsoft also seem to think so - they made offers to every single member of my final year class.

Take a look around - the USA is not the only place in the world doing good software development :)

Astarte
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

mmmmm.....  I n d i a n  f o o d .

follow me!
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"(great weather, beautiful scenery, wide open spaces, friendly people, lots of consumer goods), "

Friendly people presumably meaning that they smile while they're mugging or shooting you.

And what about mentioning the privilege of paying some of the highest taxes in the Western world for some of the lowest services.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

I am surprised that nobody mentions
Vrije Universiteit Brussel?

Anything Pattie Maes touches turns to gold...

Karel
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"Anything Pattie Maes touches turns to gold..."

And what makes you believe this has anything to do with the place she got her PhD from?

Just me (Sir to you)
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"...which is your typical westernized ASP.NET writing bozo with a degree from anywhere"

That's Mr. Bozo to you pal..

Ian Stallings
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Anyone got any thoughts on the actual question? I'm really interested to see how schools are perceived.

Firstly I'm not sure that having an extremely competitive entrance exam necessarily makes you a good school. What I'm impressed with is that the Indian High School system can get candidates to the point where they are competitive with MIT grads etc. when taking it. Or alternatively that 150,000 people are prepared to put in the extra study to reach the necessary standard.

My two suggestions to add to the top CS school list? Cambridge, England and Waterloo, Canada. Microsoft obviously think Cambridge has potential. But lets not forget that a good CS score doesn't necessarily make you the best programmer. 

David Clayworth
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

I agree with David Clayworth; would someone _please_ put down their thoughts on the actual topic.

I simply find it impossible to believe that India has better schools than the U.S.  I most certainly don't have single redneck, racist bone in my body, but let's face it.  Different cultures value different things.  I'm not saying that Indians are inherently superior or inferior, but from what I see, innovation is not trait that is valued by Indian society.  Innovation isn't a trait that coexists peacefully with a caste system.  Indians seem to be very hard working - which is great - but this only pays off in cookbook fields like IT (which is, by the way, where they are excelling.) 

If someone told me that Russian schools were better than American schools, I could accept that more easily.  Russian society, like U.S. society, has long had a reputation for innovation.  Innovation and creativity make MIT what it is, not adherence to a caste system.

anon
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

David,
It is more compulsion to put in the extra effort for entrance exams for IIT.In India if you are not a professional like engineer or doctor, there are not too many preceived opportunities.Also peer and family pressure can be huge.
I remember spending 8-10 hours a day studying Math,Physics etc... for 2 years.You need that level of preparedness to appear for the IIT,as well as high intellect.

The level of Math done in High school is quite high compared to in North America.I remember doing calculas, vectors and advanced trigonometry in grade 10.And we get to use no calculators ever, not even in the entrance exam.
Calculators are seen as signs of "Mathematical immaturity"

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Caste system is good and done with, do you know why originally caste system was thought of millenia ago? it's for the efficient division of labour among priests,warriors, etc..
But it got distorted over time.
Do you know where the 0 came from? It came from Indian mathematicians centuries past...
For a country producing it's own sattelites,auotmobiles, supercomputer technologies etc... you have to be innovative.
And Indians have to be more innovative because of lack of resources.While I won't compare the level of innovation with the US, it still is there.
Basically most Indians are great with numbers and languages, most of them know at least 2-3 languages, and that's what I guess helps in programming and IT.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Hey, I agree that I'm a meathead, but I take offense at being called a racist. Just because India is a 3rd world nation does not mean I have anything against Indian people or their abilities. I did not say anything disparaging about Indians, I made comments about lack of plumbing and dead bodies in the street.  There are many things I find disgusting about say, Houston, but that doesn't mean I have anything against texans.


Stephen Jones, rents in many (even most?) large US cities are around $500-$600 for a 1 bedroom.  Certainly this is not the case in SF/Boston/NYC, but in nearly any other city with a population larger than 500,000, it is the case. It isn't that hard to figure out a $40/hr programming job in a city like, say, Minneapolis, unless you have no business sense whatsoever.

Regarding the original question, computer science is kind of a stagnant field overall , the basics have not changed for 30 years, just the APIs. ;-) So, I'm not sure what difference the school makes for a motivated student: you can just buy a computer for $400 and a set of books, and in 2-4 years you will be as good of a technologist as anyone. In fact some of the stuff i have seen taught at MIT sets students backwards in time; there is a weirdly useless emphasis on AI and machine learning, two fields which have gone nowhere since the 1980s.

When I said "who cares" above, it was in the context of the thread "Best Computer Science Schools in the World." If you want a job outside of japan, no one really cares if you went to university of tokyo. One thing to think about is that this isn't necessarily the case in reverse: if you are a white person who wants a job in japan, having a degree from Harvard is going to be a bonus.

The main point of going to a top-brand school, is establishing a network amongst the sons and daughters of the rich and famous. If I did it over again I would have gone to Harvard, not because I cared about how good the math department was, but because I could have hung out with people like Natalie Portman after class.

meathead
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

I can't resist being a meathead once again:

>Basically most Indians are great with numbers and languages, most of them know at least 2-3 languages, and that's what I guess helps in programming and IT.

Is this everyone, or just the 52% of the population who can read and write?

meathead
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

To answer the Original question: Rutgers University, NJ, USA.

Prakash S
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

I said most,Well, it's more than 52% :),getting close to 60, but hey that's 600 million people,
Even if you can't read or write, you can still do basic counting by the way.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"Caste system is good and done with"

Really, so all the massacres of whole Dalit villages, and the revenge attacks are just there as to save Bolllywood money on script writers.

And why are the upper castes in Tamil Nadu so worried about the dalits there escaping their lot by conversion to Christianity that they try to ban it?

And how do they work out the caste quotas for gevernment positions if there aren't any castes any more?

And why do many Indian restaurants in Dubai have signs outside saying "Brahmin cooks"?

And in the marriage ads in the papers when they specify the guest is it just that they are telling the groom what fancy dress to turn up in for the inspection of the girl?

"it's for the efficient division of labour among priests,warriors, etc.."

A pretty efficient division of labour for the priests and warriors; they're priests and warriors and the other castes do the labour!

And here's silly me thinking it had something to do with the Aryan invaders making sure that the Dravidian natives did all the dirty work.

"For a country producing it's own sattelites,auotmobiles, supercomputer technologies etc..."

For forty years the only car you could get in India was a 1850's Morris Oxford; they were then replaced by Japanese models.

Indians can copy well. Van Heusen India shirts are much, much better quality than those made in the UK or USA. The reason is that the Indians have continued to make them to the standard of fifty years ago, while the parent firm has gone downhill or downmarket depending on your point of view.

"here are not too many preceived opportunities.Also peer and family pressure can be huge."

Another reason is the low cost of entry for learning programming. Much programming can actually be learnt without a computer. Other jobs require more expensive training not open to poorer families.

"Russian society, like U.S. society, has long had a reputation for innovation."

Has it? Among whom? I must be strange because I find the same mix of intellectual and personality types among Indians that I do among westerners or any other group I am familiar with.

"No proper internet flamewar is complete until somebody invokes Hitler or Stalin.  You guys are so close.. you can do it... ;) "

Why be conventional. Let's be innovative and mention Churchill, responsible for the death by starvation of millions in the Bengal famine, as well of course as all the babies he burned at Dresden and elsewhere.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"Rents in many (even most?) large US cities are around $500-$600 for a 1 bedroom ... t isn't that hard to figure out a $40/hr programming job in a city like, say, Minneapolis, "

Actually Minneapolis was the third city Ehrenreich as a base for "Nickel and Dimed". She couldn't even complete her allotted month there because rent, food and transport expenses came to more than she earned. Possibly the housing situation has eased up in the couple of years since she researched her book, but over 4.4 million low paid households, not workers, in the US were paying over 50% of their income in shelter., and 28% of parents with incomes over $30,000 a year had problems paying rent, mortgage or utility bills.

"having a degree from Harvard is going to be a bonus."

Well, it's a bonus compared to having an associate degree from your local community college, but I still doubt if it will open many doors compared to a degree from Tokyo.

"someone _please_ put down their thoughts on the actual topic."

It's not that clear what the actual topic is.

Is the question "are IIT graduates any good?". If 30% of them go to Microsoft, then I presume somebody thinks so.

Or is the question "does a tough entrance test mean a good institution?" in which case the answer is normally. After all why should good candidates take tests for a second rate place? And good teachers like good students, so they will gravitate towards the most selective institutions.

Or is the question "what do people think about universities outside the US?" In that case the answer is what people and teaching what. Academics in a particular field have a pretty good idea of what are the stellar departments in their field, but that info isn't necessarily valued, or even known outside the specialization.

Or is the question "what are the best universities outside the US?". They did a survey some years ago asking for the top five universities in Europe for each field, and in every field that Oxford or Cambridge taught they were in the top five. But you need to check for specific departments.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

The government quota system is there for backward castes to readress the previous imbalances, to try to give lower caste people the chance to get an education, the chance to get a job....etc..
there are 33% reservations for lower caste people in govt. and more in some states.Also in govt. jobs as well.
Have you not heard of affirmative action in the US? It's the same thing.

Speaking from personal experience, The state where I am from(West Bengal) caste is not such a big issue, at least I have not encountered it, nor have I practised anything like itin day to day life,neither have my friends and relatives.
Maybe in the backward states and villages you will find caste issues but not in the cities.
The effect, or rather preceived effect of the caste system is much decreased from 100 years ago.

A lot of conversion of dalits to christianity have been opposed, for the simple reason, that many of them are given bait to convert, promised some monetary reward from missionaries etc...
Again caste system has a lot to do with aryan invasion and all that, but that is a huge issue....open to debate.

You can go on saying whatever you like but until you live in India for some time, the real situation can't be clear to the average westerner.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

By the way the Bengal famine, was not caused by lack of food, but the distribution of food, there was hardly any distribution system working at all.
There have been no famines in India since independence in 1947.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

>>Actually Minneapolis was the third city Ehrenreich as a base >>for "Nickel and Dimed". She couldn't even complete her >>>>allotted month there because rent, food and transport >>expenses came to more than she earned.

Ehrenreich proved that if you make $5 an hour, don't have any friends or family, or a car, your life is going to suck no matter where you live in the USA.

I'm not sure why she felt it was necessary to write an entire book about this revelation. I guess if you've wasted the required 7 years of life required to get a PhD in biology, you've screwed up your thought processes to the point where you actually need to perform a yearlong research project to prove simple common sense observations.

Of course minneapolis will suck if you are working at wal mart - so will anywhere. However, I'm originally from minneapolis. Ehrenreich's analysis of minneapolis was particularly stupid, as she lived in a wonderbread, relatively expensive  suburb which has one bus line.

My sister still lives there and makes a biologist's wage (about $12/hr) and has a $600/m apartment which is actually very large, and conveniently located, and aside from the fact that she'd like a better salary, she lives a pretty decent life.

Anyway, my point was that it isn't necessarily the case that you can only make $40/hr working in a city where a typical rent is $1500 a month, which was what seemed to be implied. You can easily make $40/hr as a technologist in minneapolis, and live in a good apartment for $500-$600/hr.

meathead
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

woah, $500-600/hr. that's a nice apartment!

meathead
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Ehrenreich was making $7 an hour at Walmart. She reckoned you could get up to $8 or $9 an hour without too much hassle.

You don't seem to be getting the point of the book. She was living in an expensive suburb because the new low-paid jobs in America are all service jobs, looking aftet the rich, so you either live a long. long way away and pay a small forturn for the commute, and lose out on the possibiltiy of taking a second job, or have to pay over the odds for rent.

Also arguing about rents gets a little futile because there is a big difference between the average rent for all those who are renting, and the rent charged when you are trying to get an apartment for the first time.

However, there is a post here from somebody who tried to get a computing job in North Dakota; the maximum salary was $26,000 a year.

But as I said to Bella, you're basically right on this point. Even making adjustments for the cost of living you're better off in a high wage economy.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

" You can go on saying whatever you like but until you live in India for some time, the real situation can't be clear to the average westerner. "

And do you really think it's clear to you?  Or are you deliberately ignoring things?

One of the main mysteries of India is the way in which people who live there are capable of air-brushing out the tnings that don't fit in with their world view.

And nobody appears to have pointed out that there are possibly more dead people on the streets of the US than in India (except when Bollywood film stars decide to drive home after a night on the town). The "problem" is the number of liiving people on the streets of India.

By the way, it is quite possible that caste is not as strong an institution in West Bengal as it was previously. After all the area has had a communist government for the last fifty years. And I don't recollect Bengal ever having been considered a bastion of the caste system anyway.

" A lot of conversion of dalits to christianity have been opposed, for the simple reason, that many of them are given bait to convert, promised some monetary reward from missionaries etc..."

You mean like not having to clean other people's toilets for free? Why is it it's always the dalits converting to Christianity or Islam (or even Buddhism as it now appears) and not the Brahmins of Kashiris?

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

It's not only the dalits, the demographics of the whole North East have changed, due to conversions, and a lot of these conversions take place due to the monetary rewards being offered by missionaries.If they convert on their own free will, that is fine, but oviousely if you give a poor dalit say Rs 50,000 to convert, then that's something else.That is what is being opposed.By the way some of my best friends are dalits.

These sorts of things can only happen in a democracy like India, after all how many conversions have you heard of in China?

Also Hinduism, with all it's frailities is still the oldest surviving religion in the world and India along with China are the 2 oldest continuing civilizations....if one looks at the ancient Egyptians,mayans,greeks, Babylonians,Romans where are they now?All these pagan beliefs no longer exist.
Hinduism also spawned Buddhism, but the wierd thing was
Buddhism did not spread in India, the land of it's birth, but spawned along to other parts of East Asia.

Had it not been for Hinduism's tolerance and ability to adapt, it would not have survived for 5000 years, more than any of the other current surviving religions.

The caste issue is still there, but mostly in Northern India in Bihar and UP.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

>>after all how many conversions have you heard of in China?

China is one of the fastest growing Christian populations in the world, after Africa, if you believe popular Christian magazines. I don't think democracy has anything to do with the spread of religion. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...

Regarding nickel and dimed, I understand the point, if the point is "the working poor have it tough." I don't understand why that is interesting, it seems entirely obvious.

meathead
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

"Hinduism also spawned Buddhism, but the wierd thing was
Buddhism did not spread in India, the land of it's birth, but spawned along to other parts of East Asia.

Had it not been for Hinduism's tolerance and ability to adapt, "

Buddhism did spread in India, and indeed right into Afghanistan. Asoka, the archetypal Buddhist ruler,. was a South Indian.

What destroyed Buddhism in India was the vicious persecution and intolerance launched by Hindus.

Are pogroms against Muslims part of the "Hindu ability to adapt", or are you suggesting that Hindutva is simply a kind of native theosophism,  Shiv Sena a version of the boy scouts, and Dal Thackery a more benign version of Baden Powell.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

>>By the way some of my best friends are dalits.

And some of my best friends are black....
Typical racist (casteist??) remark.

just me
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

" Regarding nickel and dimed, I understand the point, if the point is "the working poor have it tough." I don't understand why that is interesting, it seems entirely obvious. "

It isn't that obvious to politicians and pundits, who were claiming throughout the nineties that all that was needed to make poverty disappear was to get people of welfare and into a job.

Ehrenreich's point is that a job, and indeed often even two jobs, aren't enough to get you out of poverty. And that life for the poor is actually more expensive than for the better off. And, most importantly, that the poor are anything but lazy or lacking in a work ethic.

You can say they're obvious, but a lot of people in public life speak as if they are not aware of them.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Asoka, my dear fellow, was not a South Indian for your information, his empire, the Magadha Empire was based out of Pataliputra, the modern day Patna in Bihar,North India.
Buddhism flourished in India for for more than a 1000 years, Asoka embraced Budhism, 500-600 years after the Buddha had passed away.
The great universities of Nalanda and Taxila, was made by Buddhist monks,which was ransacked by Muslim hordes.

If Hindus were so intolerant of others, wouldn't the percentage of Hindus, be more than 80?, what about the rest 20%, of the population, 12% muslim, 3% Christian,etc...that's 200 milion people?
The president of India and the richest man in India is not a Hindu,how would Hindus have allowed that?

The oldest Jewish settlements outside of Israel are found in India. They were welcomed with open arms.An Armenian church exists in Calcutta from 1646...
One of the oldest Armenian churches abroad.

Buddha is recognised as an Avatar, one of the Avatars of Vishnu.Show me one historical document where Hindus
helped wipe out Budhism from India?

Buddhism flourished for a long time in India, till gradually Hinduism absorbed it.
India has absorbed all kinds of foreigners, Afghans,Turks,Persians,Greeks, Huns, Kushans etc.. into Indian society.....except for the British.Look at the Mughal emperorors who ruled India for 500 years, they came from central Asia, but they became a part of India.

In fact it is Hinduism's spread which has declined. Like almost all of South East Asia, Cambodia, etc.. were Hindus.
The great temple at Angkor Vat was a Hindu temple.

If you have heard of the "Mahabharata" the ancient epic, the
wife of the king Dhritharashtra, was called " Gandhari",
Which means being from Gandhar, where Gandhar refers to present day Kandahar in Afganistan, showing the spread of Hinduism.
Ultimately it was the forces of Islam which led to the decline of Hinduism in various areas.But it is still predominent in Bali Indonesia.

Before pointing fingers at the intolerance of Hinduism, check the facts.

Sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Hinduvta, as it is called is a very recent thing, have you heard about Hinduvta, before?It was only when the BJP came to power that Hinduvta started with the Hindu right.
It means the Hindu way of life.
I certainly don't like Bal Thackery, but the politicians had for so longer pandered the muslim vote bank, that many Hindus have felt insecure. Muslims are not being told to leave India. The BJP does not say it is not secular, secularism is built into the fabric of India.Unlike any other countries in the region.Hindutva or whatever is the latest fad is not going to change it.Most Indians are just concerned with getting on with their day to day life.

Sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

What standard of "best" are we talking about?  If you're talking about how much you expect to be paid, that may reflect an American anti-intellectual streak.  No serious academic links creativity with moolah.

Acceptance rates are also meaningless.  The University of Chicago had a 50% acceptance rate, last I heard.  However, it's much harder to graduate than Harvard, and perhaps any other US school.

And what constitutes a better undergrad education?  I assume Indians can just look at the syllabi of other institutions; and if you want to know if they have good teachers, simply look at any stack of research papers in many technical fields and you'll spot a large number of Indian names.

But this is a stupid thread.  We don't really care about the topic.  Indians are made out to be brown-skinned savage crazies, and what we do with ours is put them in jail.  We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, outstripping the "innovative" old Soviet Union, and 1/3 of black males have been imprisoned at some point.  And yet we put the Injuns on the defensive; America's had its one renaissance for 60 years, and now we're qualified to critque another civilization's culture.

Tj
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

Sunit's first posting

"but the wierd thing was
Buddhism did not spread in India, the land of it's birth,"

Sunit's second posting

" Buddhism flourished in India for for more than a 1000 years, Asoka embraced Budhism, 500-600 years after the Buddha had passed away."

Am I the only one to see a contradiction?

I'm always suspicious of claims about "peaceful absorbtion".

At least the dates you give exonerate the Muslims.

Incidentally, Chrisitianity has been present in India since the !st century AD. At the Council of Nicea the modern country with most delegates present was India.

I'm am not claiming that Hinduism is anymore intolerant than Christianity, Islam or Buddhism has been. I am merely denying your pretence that it is any different.

"Muslims are not being told to leave India. "

This is a lie and you know it. BJP activists routinely demand that all Miuslims go to Pakistan.

And until Shiv Shena saw its chance to expand to the whole of India, it demanded the expulsion from Maharastra not only of Muslims but of Hindus from alll other parts of India.

"the politicians had for so longer pandered the muslim vote bank"

BJP propaganda. Sure Congress routinely used religious differences to get the Muslim vote, but your choice of words is the same as that of David Duke when he talks about pandering to the black or Jewish vote bank. The difference is that the Americans don't vote Duke as Prime Minister.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

The BJP is in power because it is elected by the people.How can u explain it's growth from just 2 seats in power in the 80's to 200 hundred seats now?

Nowhere is it the official party line that muslims should go to Pakistan.All the BJP asks is for Muslims to be loyal citizens of India.The polulation of muslims is actually increasing in India, due to migration from Bangladesh.
Most of the border districts of West Bengal are majority muslims.Muslims have their own civil code in India.If muslims are so persecuted in India, explain the mass migration from Bangladesh? There are 20 million muslims from Bangladesh in India.The communists don't care in West Bengal becuase it is their vote bank..By the way the hindu population has declined in Bangladesh from 20% to less than 10%, most of them fleeing prosecution their.
The Hindu population in the Kashmir valley(the Pandits) has reached nill almost due to systemtaic targetting by terrorists.

what I am saying is nothing is black and white.Indian muslims are free to go to Pakistan, if they so wish, it was meant as a homeland for subcontintal muslims, why did they not go?There are more mulsims in India than Pakistan, what is stopping them from leaving if things were so bad?

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

A lot of people can demand a lot of things, but it is not possible for all muslims to go to Pakistan...
that means the president of india should go to pakistan? the richest indian should go to pakistan?... rediculous.
But those people who celebrate victory when Pakistan beats India in a cricket match(and I have seen it myself)....are certainly free to leave the country.

the BJP Is in power through a coalition, so it has to live with it's coalition partners.
As for bal thackery he's a lunatic, sooner they get rid of him the better.
Don't compare the Indian Prime Minister and leadership to David Duke.Vajpayee is as secular as anybody you can get.

There are even senior Muslim leaders in the BJP, why did they join the BJP then?The most extremists are the VHP and the Bajrang Dal, actually a lot of thir funds come from Indians abroad.

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

>>If muslims are so persecuted in India, explain the mass migration from Bangladesh?

Because Bangladesh is an even bigger sewer then rural India?

just me
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

spot on there, religion has no part in this.....

sumit
Tuesday, January 14, 2003

sumit,

Do you have any references on this issue of Christian Missionaries bribing Dalits 500k Rp for them to convert?

I have never heard of this practice and quite frankly it shocks me. I need some hard references so that I can confront our church's mission board with the facts you have of this completely unchristian activity.

With your help, we can put a stop to these despicable practices.

Thanks.

Charlotte C.
Tuesday, January 14, 2003


I can give you some references, of newspapers, but it's a well known issue in India, that monetary rewards are part of the package for some conversions, it might not be hard cash,but something else.
I have nothing against conversions,but the person has to do so willingly,without expectations of any rewards.

sumit
Wednesday, January 15, 2003

sumit - does that mean that all English of Indians/Pakistanis/whatever who cheer when England lose to India/Pakistan/whoever "go back to their own country"?

Not Norman Tebbit
Wednesday, January 15, 2003

I have heard of missionaries getting converts because they insisted on conversion before you could enter their schools, or get free meals. but the stories in the Indian press are pretty certainly all slurs intneded to justify religious persecution/prosecution by the Hindus.

Right wing Hindus even object to the conversion of tribals, who were never Hindus in the first place.

There can be no doubt whatsoever that what we have been seeing over the last ten to fifteen years is the growth of a fascist pseudo-Hinduism intended to gain political power by inventing and exercabating imaginary issues, such as Ayoda or Muslim terrrorism.


Sumit is right however to suggest that the ordinary people are indifferent to this. Behind every pogrom in India you will see groups of organized thugs who under the control of and filled with drink by the local politicians. This is as true of Sri Lanka, Bangla Desh and Pakistan as it is of India. Nevertheless when the politicians that organized the progroms then get elected with increased majoriities, as is the case in Gujarat, then the common people must take some of the blame.

It is worth mentioning incidentally that it was a Hindu, Ghandi, who stopped the spreading of the massacres of Muslims to Dehli, and another Hindu who murdered Ghandi a few weeks later.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, January 15, 2003

I like to thing I'm a cunning linguist but this one has me stumped.

    exercabating

exacerbating?

Brad Siemens
Thursday, January 16, 2003

Sorry, a typo. I should have written "exacerbating", as you guessed.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, January 16, 2003

I'm an Indian Christian and to tell me that missionaries are bribing Dalits is a load of crap.
the only time that happened was once, for about a year, under british rule.
ppl especially within radical groups, just to irritate the hindu majority spread lies that missionaries are bribing dalits. the missionaries themselves r short of cash! i've gone to a mission home in Kerala. ppl made the most of the things there themselves. u think the Church is that loaded in wealth?
they are also trying to stop Christian growth, my claiming it to be a "colonial" religion. Christianity is not that baseless! most Indian Christians were converted during the time of St.Thomas (a disciple of Jesus Christ himself), and ppl like St.Francis Xavier.
Indian IT specialists r quite probably the best in the world.
they have proved themselves in the field and thousands of jobs are being shifted to India, not just for the low costs. if that were the case, then y aren't jobs being transfered at such a high rate to China in the IT field?
go to a decent indian high school and you'll see how students rack their brains. without a schedule, a plan and major brains, you'll fail. India was looted during the british era. poverty before it's colonization was unheard of. with respect to trade, India's exports were like 3 times greater than its imports.
100 years ago it was easier for a country to become developed. but now, because of a set world order, the united nations, trade agreements and all that blah, it's much harder for countries like India, China.
soon though, as India has proven in it's history, it will rise again.

TTJ
Sunday, January 04, 2004

Hasnt this become a discussion on
Caste and Religion

Rather than Best Computer Science Schools of World

Andthereitgoes
Sunday, March 14, 2004

Well to just add to whatever is being discussed here are some facts...


The facts below were recently published in one of the German magazines which deals with World History:

India never invaded any country in her last 10,000 years of history.

India invented the Number System. Zero was invented by Aryabhatta.

The World's first university was established in Takshila in 700BC. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. The University of Nalanda built in the 4th century CE was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education.

Sanskrit is the mother of all higher languages. Sanskrit is the most precise and therefore suitable language for computer software - a report in Forbes magazine, July 1987.

Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to humans. Charaka, the father of medicine consolidated Ayurveda 2500 years ago. Today Ayurveda is fast regaining its rightful place in our civilization. It is the only system which takes the holistic view of the person being treated.

Although modern images of India often show poverty and lack of development, India was the richest country on earth until the time of the British in the early 17th Century. Christopher Columbus was attracted by her wealth and was looking for a route to India when he discovered the American continent by mistake.

The art of Navigation was born in the river Sindh 6000 years ago. The very word Navigation is derived from the Sanskrit word NAVGATIH. The word navy is also derived from Sanskrit 'Nou'.

Bhaskaracharya calculated the time taken by the earth to orbit the sun hundreds of years before the astronomer Smart. Time taken by earth to orbit the sun: (5th century) 365.258756484 days. The value of "pi" was first calculated by Budhayana, and he explained the concept of what is known as the Pythagorean Theorem. He discovered this in the 6th century long before the European mathematicians.

Algebra, trigonometry and calculus came from India. Quadratic equations were propounded by Sridharacharya in the 11th century. The largest numbers the Greeks and the Romans used were 106 whereas Hindus used numbers as big as 10**53(10 to the power of 53) with specific names as early as 5000 BCE during the Vedic period. Even today, the largest used number is Tera: 10**12(10 to the power of 12).

According to the Gemological Institute of America, up until 1896, India was the only source for diamonds to the world. USA based IEEE has proved what has been a century old suspicion in the world's scientific community that the pioneer of wireless communication was Prof Jagdeesh Bose and not Marconi. The earliest reservoir and dam for irrigation was built in Saurashtra. According to Saka King Rudradaman I of 150 CE a beautiful lake aptly called 'Sudarshana' was constructed on the hills of Raivataka during Chandragupta Maurya's time.

Chess (Shataranja or AshtaPada) was invented in India.

Sushruta is the father of surgery. 2600 years ago he and health scientists of his time conducted complicated surgeries like cesareans, cataract, artificial limbs, fractures, urinary stones and even plastic surgery and brain surgery. Usage of anesthesia was well known in ancient India. Over 125 surgical equipments were used. Deep knowledge of anatomy, physiology, etiology, embryology, digestion, metabolism, genetics and immunity is also found in many texts.

When many cultures were only nomadic forest dwellers over 5000 years ago, Indians established the Harappan Civilization along the Indus river.

The place value system, the decimal system was developed in India in 100 BC.



Quotes about India


Albert Einstein said:
We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.

Mark Twain said:
India is,
the cradle of the human race,
the birthplace of human speech,
the mother of history,
the grandmother of legend,
and the great grand mother of tradition.
our most valuable and most instructive materials in the
history of man are treasured up in India only.

French scholar Romain Rolland said:
If there is one place on the face of earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India.


Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA said:
India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border.



New Facts about Indians in America!



There are 3.22 Million Indians in America
38% of Doctors in America are Indians.
12% of Scientists in America are Indians.
36% of NASA employees are Indians.
34% of MICROSOFT employees are Indians
28% of IBM employees are Indians
17% of INTEL employees are Indians
13% of XEROX employees are Indians
23% of the Indian Community in America have Green-Card

Andthereitgoes
Sunday, March 14, 2004

Information of the admation

Naeem warriach
Thursday, June 03, 2004

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