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Make it too easy, and it will become too cheap.

One the reasons of course why I think VB developers are not taken serious as C++ developers is because VB is simply easier. By the way, this might not be such bad thing...it just the way it is.

However, there is another lesson here. If you make something that requires a high level of skill easy, then you wind up with less quality on average.

Thus, a excellent developer certainly can develop good software in VB, or C++. And in fact, if the developer is real honest, he will probably prefer VB over C++ when writing a business applction. He will be more productive, and the end results will be better.

The problem with VB is that it makes some tasks easy, and requires less knowledge about computers (memory management etc.). Since it requires less knowledge, you get a lot more people writing applications with less skill. As a result, the VB applications are respected less. Most people then state that VB is not a serious developers tool. This is wrong, but due to so many amateur applications, VB gets less respect.

We see the same thing with business using ms-access to develop in house database systems. A lot of them are real bad, since the accountant down the hall all of a sudden becomes the Joe database developer. So many bad applications have been written in ms-access because it is so easy. In fact, I have heard of companies that do NOT allow ms-access at all. This is due to such a bad reputation that has (yet that same company will then develop a VB front end to a JET application...which in general is even worse, and uses the same JET engine anyway!!). When a company runs Oracle, everything is good and happy. (ie: leave it to the pro’s).

You don’t see a lot of rotten Oracle applications since the skill level in general is much higher to use Oracle.

We also see the same for a windows administration. At lot of windows networks are UN-stable, not because of windows, but because the person setting up the network can click a mouse, and know virtually nothing about the running and setup of  network .

How about using CityDesk? Should you use it, and have the site suffer due to less skill required? Maybe it will not suffer!

Edsger Dikstra who passed away recently was a computer professor for much of the early years of computing. He commented that the early 80’s that when students started getting their hands on word processor, the average quality of writing paper dropped.

I actually might agree with this, but more students and people than ever were now able to write papers.

With VB, more people then ever are able to write windows applications.

With ms-access, more people then ever are able to write database applications.

However, those windows applications are of less quality, those ms-access database applications are less quality, and so is the average term paper.

Hence, if we make something “easy”....we tend also lower the average quality of work. (existing talented people will not suffer a loss, but the average level will drop).

Why don’t we go out and purchase a home dental kit? Why don’t we allow  everyone to practice dentistry? It certainly would bring down the cost of a dentist. It would also bring down the quality of dental work also. If you don’t care about good dental work, then I suppose it is good that every friend now has a home dental kit. For some of us, we still want that quality dental work. (hey, anyone want to have some fun drilling my teeth?).

Hence, should we care that the writing of software is getting easier? Should we make products that de-skill certain tasks?

Is the consumer faced with higher quality dental work, or a cheap kit that allows each of use to work on our teetth..but less quality?

Will not people choose the cheap lower quality when given a chance?

Does this mean the end of high quality professional work every time we make something easy?

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Kallal@msn.com

Albert D. Kallal
Sunday, September 15, 2002


>Should we make products that de-skill certain tasks?

I personally think that this low qulity outcome is not really the tools fault per se, but rather that the developer underestimates the complexity of the underlying details, and dives in too deep, too fast.

I saw evidence of this when I held a class teaching programming using Delphi. I had people in the class that got the basic "point-and-click-and-add-event-handlers" concept pretty quickly, and because of that came up with stuff they wanted to do, that was more "real" applications than the ones in the text books.

This stuff involved tray-icon media players and AVI-players, which required Sendmessage()'ing all over the place along with some GetProcAddress() stuff. Pointers. Windows API typecasting. End of happy days.

So I think its not at all about de-skilling tasks, its about making already skilled people work very much faster. So, what we should do is kill the myth that these tools de-skill anything.

>(existing talented people will not suffer a loss, but the average level will drop).

If I am going to be cynical about the whole thing, I can say that I have seen this happen. But not in the product-shop where I have worked. However at the consultant-places I have worked I have seen this. I believe its a consultant-firm problem mainly, because these companies have only one way to generate revenue, and that is selling another guy. With product-shops its not the same, since they do not have to sell people on an hourly basis to generate revenue.

>Why don’t we go out and purchase a home dental kit? Why don’t we allow everyone to practice dentistry?

Becuase of the same reasons you dont see low-skilled VB people working over at

http://www.honeywell.com/en/aerospace/index.jsp

Consequences.

Just my 2 cents,

Patrik
Sunday, September 15, 2002

Albert, I believe the same thing happens to SQL Server that you are seeing with access.    SQL Server DBA's get a lot less respect than Oracle or DB2.  Because SQL Server is easier to use it attracts some lesser skilled people. 

This pattern you describe, Albert, is one of the drawbacks of Windows and the software that runs on it.  For techical things it seems ease of use and the skills of the workers using it are inversely related.

crusty admin
Sunday, September 15, 2002

VB and Access make the simple simpler. Most people involved in dev for a living know that the severity of issues due to bad design and/or dev increases exponentially with the complexity of the application or task.

The problem isn't that VB or Access make dev too easy. It's that there are people in power out there that think they make the tasks easier than they really are, treating them as some sort of magical tool that takes anyone from anywhere and turns them into a dev with 10 years exp. The same can be said for Windows network admins.

Going back to the Dentist analogy, anyone can take one of those little sucker things and suck up some drool, but I'll be damned if I let them do my root canal!

The right tool, the right toolman.

Jack lives over there ->
Sunday, September 15, 2002

The average quality of products may drop, but the total number of quality products generally rises.

In other words, lowering the bar not simply attracts a number of quacks, but it also enables many who have the potential to create great products, but not the ability or possibility to master the tools at hand.

How many great contemporary writers would even be writers if you still needed a feather and ink?

So let's concentrate on filtering out bad products instead of banning tools.

Erik
Monday, September 16, 2002

Its generally easier to travel a well worn road than create an entirely new road on your own.

If many have been before they tend to have at least tramped all the grass down, probably tarmacked it and businesses have sprung up along the route because in the past someone broke down in that spot and thought it a great place to sell lemonade.

When your making your own path, prospecting, the quality of your tools comes down to how durable they are and how sharp.  You need to cut everything down and build whatever you need along the way.  Your survival skills are more important than being able to read signposts.

If you're lucky (or more likely rich), you can afford to buy a behemoth that cuts down the forest, levels the ground and builds the road all in one hot tar stinking, grinding trundle.

But its likely to be quite slow and require a lot of people and servicing along the way.

Simon Lucy
Monday, September 16, 2002

Erik,

How would you go about filtering out the bad?

semi
Monday, September 16, 2002

----------------------------------------------------------------------
How about using CityDesk? Should you use it, and have the site suffer due to less skill required? Maybe it will not suffer!
--------------------------------------------------------------- Albert

Albert,

I agree with what you are saying.  However, I think that CityDesk is an exception.

CityDesk is designed to make a simple task easy for unskilled people.  It recognises this, and stays well within its boundaries.

I think there are 2 trends here.

Firstly, there are easy tasks that are made difficult by process.  A good tool can iron out the process and make it as simple as it should be.

A good form designer (like VBs) is an example of this.  Rather than having to work the whole thing out on paper and input the numbers you can just drag and drop components.

Secondly, there are difficult tasks, and bad tools make these tasks appear easy by hiding the complexity.

Wizards are an example of this.  As you can see, by pressing next a few times you can have a server running without knowing any of the implications of what you've just done.

I think Citydesk falls into the first camp.  Maintaining content on a web site should not be a complex task.  It does not pretend to give the user the ability to do more.  They can paste or type up their documents, then publish them to the web.

CityDesk doesn't attempt to allow the user to do advance formatting, like Frontpage.  It's templating allows these tasks to be done by the right people with the right tools.  However that skilled person isn't tied up doing repetitive updates for evermore.

Ged Byrne
Monday, September 16, 2002

Well, that would be difficult and error prone. You don't go about not trusting anyone until they've proven their competence.
So which mechanism do you use to determine which carpenter to employ? Examine past work? Look for credentials?

If you're looking for a physician its far easier. They come with a big stamp saying they are in fact accomplished. There are of course differences, but you can trust their competence.

If you need a refrigirator, you might look for quality approvals or energy saver awards.

But if you are looking for a quality software product, or a quality designer, coder or whatever, it is still up to you to make that determination by yourself, over and over again.

There are many attributes you can look for to determine whether the product or person you want to put your faith in is worthy. Joel has several good pointers in the Guerilla Guide to Interviewing article. And as for products, I usually look at how well they allow me to accomplish my goals and how they not get in my way and generally irritate me. You may find your own criteria.

Does this answer your question?

Erik
Monday, September 16, 2002

Obviously my reply was to Semi and Ged only got in between by accident :-)

Erik
Monday, September 16, 2002

By the way, to add to what I said before, don't be fooled by the companies reputation when you evaluate a product. Evaluate the product, not the company.

As an example, I have been using Visual Basic for a while out of necessity. It does not pass many of my criteria, even though some other Microsoft products do pass those same criteria (and yet fail other:-).

VB insists on not autosaving my work, while Word does. Even though VB as a development tool is much more likely to crash. My VB is just as critical as someone elses memo might be and I would think many developers at Microsoft use VB too. Yet there still is no autosave feature other than the weak save-at-run. I don't run code as much as I create new code. I end up loosing work unless I happened to have pressed save, or run shortly before a crash. I find that stupid behaviour.

Erik
Monday, September 16, 2002

> How would you go about filtering out the bad?

It happens by itself.    Some people need to build a Ferarri, others do not.  If you build a Honda, and it suits your purposes, then everything is fine, and everyone is happy, and money is not wasted on a Ferarri.   
But if you needed a Fararri in the first place, then you hire the "experts", and get that built, and scrap the Honda.  The only harm done is time to market, which may or may not matter. 

People like to make things complicated in order to remain needed, and charge a high price for their services.  Just ask a lawyer. 

I think the real issue is that programmers/DBAs/IT staff are seeing their jobs trivialized as we see more and more levels of abstraction, and the skills/intelligence required drop.  Since truck drivers can build Access apps, why do we need to pay a PHD to do the same work?  We don't, at least not for much longer.

While on this topic,  I surmize there are 5,000,000 "truck drivers" tooling up themselves in 6 month IT courses as we speak.  ANY and EVERY lower level IT task will be taken over by ex-burger king employees.  If your job does not require a rocket scientist, and you do not speciailize in a complex IT domain, expect the impending competition to decimate your salary within 5-7 years.  Take note, that sticking in a niche skill does not guatantee you saftey.  If firms can get away with Access for 1/5 of the implementation cost, then they damn well will! 

Bottom line:  Offer a skill that has both higher barrier to entry, AND one that is not gratuitiously complex (when a simpler alternative can be used most of the time.. eg:MFC)

Bella
Monday, September 16, 2002

But what about the person with no technical knowledge or, more often the case, people that were bad programmers and are now managers?  I.e. people that either don't know technical stuff and people that think they know technical stuff but really don't.  To take an extreme example, how do you know when to hire the truck driver that has gone through the 6 month course versus the MIT PhD.  Ok, that one should be easy.  But what about the truck driver versus someone with high school programming?  A good programmer could decipher it by having someone write some code in an interview, and having the people bring in some samples.  But what about the other people?

semi
Monday, September 16, 2002

>  But what about the other people?

Well, they too should have the skills that are needed to make informed decisions. If you are responsible for hiring good designers or coders, you need to acquire the skills to be able to determine which is which. You do not need to be either, but you do know how to recognise what you are looking for.

I do not know cars, but I do know what qualities to look for in a car.
I do not know assurances, and I do not know what to look for in assurances, so I ask an expert to advise me, based on the criteria I do know.

Erik
Monday, September 16, 2002

So I guess the question really is:  What are the skills that are needed in order to make an informed hiring decision?  I think I'm beginning to see why managers bring in consultants from McKinsey.

semi
Monday, September 16, 2002

Don't blame the tool, blame the user. Using that same logic an artist wouldn't want photoshop to come about because it makes it too easy to create beautiful pictures. Obviously comparing photoshop to VB is hyperbole but the point is  we need better training and better ways to disseminate industry knowledge to newbies, not restrictions on our tools. That would just mean we are going backward not forward. By being able to concentrate on the ideas and concepts behind the software, instead of the mundane, we can move forward.

trollbooth
Monday, September 16, 2002

I totally agree with Erik. If you are the manager responsible for hiring, then you should have enough intelligence to know where your competencies do or don't lie.

Bring in an independent third party to evaluate your bidding/potential suppliers. In a lot of industries, on non trivial projects, independent evaluators/due diligence people/project managers fill the gaps with skills that managers are lacking.

investment bankers with M&A
lawyers in most contract negotiations
quantity surveyors in construction....

More and more IT professionals... the real deal, and not someone who has read teach yourself MSCE in 5 days ... will probably find themselves filling this role.

Mgmt will gladly pay you a few hundred a day to find them someone who will spend the next couple of months at Burger-King-rates building a business app. The rates that  you can charge for development will *certainly* drop, as the development tools get more sophisticated and cheaper, lowering the barriers to entry.

tapiwa
Monday, September 16, 2002

But that creates a vicious circle.  How do you know how to hire a good, independent, 3rd party?  Does such a thing even exist?  I've seen a lot of bad candidates represented by some 3rd parties (tech recruiters).

semi
Monday, September 16, 2002

There is a corrollary of this problem :

Boss: Serge, you look to have a hard time finding people experienced with VC++. That CV pile is not thick at all ! Wouldn't it be better for us to switch to VB or Delphi. It would be so easier to find people.

I know. But 99% of the guys you'd find are bad developers. The problem is not finding someone who knows the tool. The problem is to find a good developer. There are as many talented guys who know VB vs Delphi vs VC++. But the one who's good at VB (or, to a smaller extend, Delphi) is as hidden as a needle in a haystack. Boy, I don't want spend my 200% of my time interviewing morons hoping to find the good one... I prefer my short pile of CVs to your 10-story thick pile because they contain exactly as many eligible candidates.

[OK. I admit there are tools better than others at a specific task. But this isn't my point.]

Serge Wautier
Monday, September 16, 2002

This "lowering of the bar" is happening everywhere, not just in software.

Why has drywall replaced plaster-and-lath for interior wall construction? It's cheaper, faster, simpler and can be installed by lower-skilled (and therefore lower-cost) labor. It isn't necessarily better; my mom's 80-year old plaster-walled house has fewer cracks in the walls than my 40-year old drywall house. Yet there is still a demand for plaster craftsmen, but they are few in number and therefore very expensive.

Why are many houses being built with prefab roof trusses? Same reasons. In the "old days" a carpenter with some basic tools and a framing square could build a house. Now we have "carpenters" whose skills comprise using a nail gun to drive 10 nails into a joint that only required 3.

VB is the same thing; you get acceptable results for most of the required tasks at an acceptable price.

Mark Williams
Monday, September 16, 2002

>Hence, should we care that the writing of software is getting easier? Should we make products that de-skill certain tasks?

Of course you should because if you don't then someone else will.

I think some of the gloomy predictions in this thread are probably correct. In fact a lot of programming being done at the moment (web apps in particular) is likely to become nothing more than configuration, not even needing VB level skills.

Tony E
Monday, September 16, 2002

[In fact a lot of programming being done at the moment (web apps in particular) is likely to become nothing more than configuration, not even needing VB level skills. ]


SHWEEET. I can't wait to be honest, i am tired of thinking

trollbooth
Monday, September 16, 2002

Bella - I agree.  You seem knowledgeable, so tell me of a few other fields I could go into once programming is overrun with Sally Struthers graduates.  I love programming and would like something similar, but I have no ideas.  Accounting maybe?

gasoline
Monday, September 16, 2002

“We see the same thing with business using ms-access to develop in house database systems. A lot of them are real bad, since the accountant down the hall all of a sudden becomes the Joe database developer.”
HUMBUG.
Are you defining quality as software like you develop?
The question you need to ask Joe is, does this stinking fetid pile he created help him get his job done? If the answer is yes, then it has sufficient quality. If this yahoo wants to publish his code, it will succeed or fail in the market, just like everything else.
Are you suggesting that the tools used to create software should be made more complicated and harder to master? Are you bored? Do you need more work to do? Maybe it would be easier to lobby for restrictions on overseas development, or impose a licensing scheme on software engineers. That would protect your job much better than obfusticating development tools. That is what this tread is about, how to protect our precious jobs and high salaries.
It is a poor craftsman who must blame his tools.

Doug Withau
Monday, September 16, 2002

trollbooth, I love your posts, all of them.

Troy King
Monday, September 16, 2002

I agree with Doug. If Joe Accountant makes an Access
application that helps his work, then the quality is sufficient.

It's when the clowns from marketing take a look over Joe's shoulder and say, "hey it's working for Joe, and it's got an animated GIF in it....Let's sell it!" that we're all in trouble. Suddenly Joe's in a position to develop product quality software...and he may not be ready.

Yeah, that's it...let's blame marketing...;-)

Lauren B.
Monday, September 16, 2002

Gasoline,  Perhaps get your trucker's liscence? 

Bella
Monday, September 16, 2002

First, I have no problem with tools that make things easy.

In the example of the Accountant using Ms-access. Heck, lets take the example of the spread sheet. The spread caused a incredible revolution. Not thousands...but literally millions of people use spreadsheets everyday. In fact, more incredible is that those spreadsheets *used* to require the IT department down the hall to create the calculations. You know those..the ones with lab coats in the raised computer room had to create those “what if” and all kinds of calculations.

In other words, the majority of spreadsheet solutions today required programmers and software development prior to the invention of a spreadsheet. In fact, the whole pc revolution flatted out the IT departments, and spread them to all users.

Am I hinting that spreadsheets are bad? Of course not. Is the average design of a spreadsheet bad? (hum...it really does not matter!). Did spreadsheets put developers out of work? (perhaps...but again it don’t matter (maybe it created more jobs...I got some spreadsheet that integrate with Pick/d3 this week!).

It is remarkable how many companies mange information using a spreadsheet. It is remarkable how many systems are created using Excel.

Hence, I have zero problem with the idea that some tools make things easy. To think that the spreadsheet is a bad idea is simply crazy.

I think the real lesson here is that this concept, or idea of making something easy has to be thought about. From a marketing point of view, if the image of the system becomes too Mickey mouse, then it can be hurt.

I also believe that products like Quicken that let ME do accounting with no clue about double entry booking keeping is incredible. Taking a concept and making it work for the masses can make you a millionaire.

It also can help one target, and think about the market one goes after.

As for the swipe at ms-access, yes..there is tons of in-house applications running and built by people with very little database experience. By the way, this week Microsoft is celebrating the 10th anniversary of ms-access.

Several of the ms-access newsgroups have at least 200 posts a day. Further, ms-access sites like
http://www.mvps.org/access/

record 25,000 hits PER day (and is still growing year to year!). It turns out, that ms-access is one of true success stories, and the number of hits per day at ms-access sites continues to grow. In other words, those tools like Excel, and ms-access do empower people. (in other words...the heck with the professionals who poo-poo this kinds of applications).

I firmly believe that empowering people is a good idea. In fact, this is what computers are all about. I think none of the above is news to anyone.

The trick here is to somehow keep those people that would be turned off by the ease, or lack of professionalism that this kind of empowerment can entail.

Perhaps this where some types of marketing could help. Every company I know loves Excel...but a lot of them sure hate ms-access!

They are just tools!

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Kallal@msn.com

Albert D. Kallal
Monday, September 16, 2002

"If you make something that requires a high level of skill easy, then you wind up with less quality on average..."

I think you're missing the last part: "...but you get more excellent results than before also."

Making a task easier widens the bell curve. The median might move downwards, but the great part is all of the new outliers you'll get at the very top.

This phenomenon is very clear in the world of computer-generated visual effects. Years ago, only George Lucas' Industrial Light and Magic was doing digital effects (quite competently). Now graphics software has become much more widely available and easier to use. The overall quality of digital effects has declined dramatically; there's a whole ton of crap out there now. But there are also a few gems that wouldn't otherwise have appeared. Many are from artists without much of a technical bent, or talented individuals with little or no money. (one good example is http://www.405themovie.com)

Another dynamic that operates here is that consumers are often willing to accept a lower-quality product if it costs much less. Consider the success of no-frills low-cost airlines like Southwest, or the loads of cruddy cheap Windows software out there. In this case, simplifying the development/production process enables low-cost, low-quality competition to dominate the industry. Connoisseurs of software quality can still pay more for well-designed products. (I hesitatingly introduce the example of Apple's hardware and software...)

Dan Maas
Monday, September 16, 2002

> That is what this tread is about, how to protect our
> precious jobs and high salaries.

Well, yes. I call it "keeping up-to-date". Look around you. Why do you think half the world is suing the other half?

These days, the real competitive advantage is not is presenting more value than your competitor, but in protecting your market so your competitor can't even get started, and sue him if he does.

If everyone can do it, why can't we, poor developers? ;)

Suravye ninto manshima taishite ("Peace favor your sword")

Paulo Caetano
Tuesday, September 17, 2002

"Bella - I agree. You seem knowledgeable, so tell me of a few other fields I could go into once programming is overrun with Sally Struthers graduates."

If I may interject -- what about management of the great unwashed hordes?  And selling them shovels.

Sammy
Tuesday, September 17, 2002

Paulo

A word, ... Honour, and an unquestioned faith in our ability to adapt and survive, whatever the odds.

Like they say, can't hold a man dow without staying down with him.

tapiwa
Tuesday, September 17, 2002

I know ths was probably tongue in cheek but I'll comment anyway:

[These days, the real competitive advantage is not is presenting more value than your competitor, but in protecting your market so your competitor can't even get started, and sue him if he does.

If everyone can do it, why can't we, poor developers? ;)]

- Because it's not only morally wrong but eventually you will be surpassed. I say continue to innovate and fill the needs of our customers and all will be fine. We are just having some rough times right now, but hopfully we'll be able to recover and grow a healthy market for everyone. Rosy idea of the future? Maybe. But if I thought this market was going to fail I'd be seeking a way out, not posting messages on this board.

trollbooth
Tuesday, September 17, 2002

> A word, ... Honour, and an unquestioned faith in our
> ability to adapt and survive, whatever the odds.

Well, I try. But sometimes, I feel there's a balance between both, in that you have to be "flexible" in respect to you honour, and be more "adaptable" (meaning "malleable"). It's the old "break or bend" dilemma.

Suravye ninto manshima taishite ("Peace favor your sword")

Paulo Caetano
Tuesday, September 17, 2002

> I know ths was probably tongue in cheek

Well, I did remember to put the smiley :)

> - Because it's not only morally wrong but eventually you will be surpassed.

I agree with the "morally wrong", but I'm not so sure about the other.

> Rosy idea of the future? Maybe. But if I thought this
> market was going to fail I'd be seeking a way out, not
> posting messages on this board.

There are a couple of things that we can't force ourselves to do. Stop breathing is one of them. Giving up hope is another. The paradox here is that it's just as hard to maintain hope as it is to give it up.

Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again - I hope 25 years from now, all you hopeful, up-beat people will be telling me "See? Told ya so!" :)

Suravye ninto manshima taishite ("Peace favor your sword")

Paulo Caetano
Tuesday, September 17, 2002

"You don’t see a lot of rotten Oracle applications since the skill level in general is much higher to use Oracle."

Well, at... let's say, "one of the biggest companies in the world," they've got a bunch of Oracle-based applications on their intranet. The Oracle logo even appears...

These applications are, to put it mildly, huge steaming piles of diarrheal donkey dung. The amount of wasted labor by employees because of these improvements appears to run at about 1% of total labor. That doesn't sound like much, until you consider that these applications provide peripheral support functions. And hey, when 1% of total labor is in the _billions_ of dollars, someone should sit up and take notice.

anonymous
Wednesday, September 18, 2002

Software developers are not the first to go through this. The funny thing is that software developers ultimately caused this problem in other industries. Graphic designers of the seventies are disgusted by most of the work produced by people that learnt their trade on Macs with Adobe and Quark applications. The subtle arts of typography and layout that the traditional craftsmen learnt during their long apprenticeships were not being passed on to the masses. Of course the new tools gave some artists the freedom to create work that was unimagined only a few years before, and gave voice to populations that hadn’t been heard. It’s that last point that is important. Do any of us seriously think that we can come up with every possible solution to every person’s problems? I used to work for a medical applications firm and we saw plenty of Access apps that not only worked for their creators, but addressed a need that none of the big commercial vendors had recognized. Maybe we are moving towards an industry that looks more like auto manufacturing: The big auto manufacturers produces a huge variety of vehicles, the aftermarket parts industry makes a lot of bolt-on enhancements, the local mechanic can install those parts, a local artist can repaint the car, and someone ends up with a vehicle that pleases them and meets their unique needs. So the question is: Will you be a mechanic, or an engineer?

Geoff
Thursday, September 19, 2002

The above conversation spends a lot of time seeing the "trees", good developers have experience with the "woods" this is what distinguishes them.
Design, architecture, the ability to solve, this is why I get paid, any knucklescraper can work Access or VB, I've just finished writing a VB/Access financial (actuarial) system for an insurance company, put one of your control droppers into that project at the start and what do they produce? A big fat nothing that's what.

Tony
Friday, September 20, 2002

Well put Geoff!

tapiwa
Monday, September 23, 2002

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