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Buy One Get 3 - Is that Delphi

Now Delphi 7 can creative.net apps, win32 apps and Linux apps. Is there a better option for developers ? www.borland.com/delphi

Who said what's Delphi ?

Sunish
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

I seem to recall that Java promises all this and more...

Jeroen
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Although Java is great tool, I don't recall it doing native win32 code or a decent native GUI.


I'm a big Delphi fan and totally agree that with Delphi you don't have to choose between win32, .NET or Linux. You can do them all.

However, the just announced Delphi 7 only contains a *preview* .NET compiler. This means that it is not integrated into the IDE and therefore IMHO useless. So for real .NET development VS.NET is still the way to go.

For full .NET integration Delphi supporters have to wait for the next Delphi.NET to be released somewhere next year. Personally I don't mind, because it will take considerable time before .NET takes over win32.

Jan Derk
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So for real .NET development VS.NET is still the way to go.
-------------------------------------------------------------- Jan Derk

However Delphi is the ONLY option that will allow you to develop for .Net without abandoning everybody who is using 9x/Me.

Ged Byrne
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Yes that's what I meant. Only with a sidemark that it will only be really true when the next Delphi version arrives.

I wanted to set the idea straight that Delphi is already on par with VS.NET for .NET development. It probably will be, but it isn't yet. So if people want to do .NET, their best bet is still VS.NET. Personally I haven't heard one single compelling reason that would make me switch to .NET. For developers using MS tools there is not much choice though, except to not upgrade or switch to Borland tools.

What really pleasantly surprised me is that Borland now ships Kylix (= Delphi for Linux) with Delphi 7. I wonder when VS for Linux will be available.

Jan Derk
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Its not promises, but the product is almost out ..

Sunish
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Borland once used to make the best development tools on the market, but they were so cocky and arrogant that they believed someone like Microsoft could never beat them.

Now look how badly they're suffering.

MadMan
http://madman.weblogs.com

MadMan
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Madman -- Well, I just did a quick check on share values of MSFT and BORL.

Measuring from a point two years ago from today, MSFT shares are DOWN about 33% (were 72 now 48).  BORL shares are UP about 60% (was 5 now around 8).

So you tell me who's suffering. 

By the way, it's not just their stock price that's doing well, BORL is one of the few tech companies turning a profit in this market.  Of course, MSFT's still turning a great profit, too.  Just wanted to point out that Borland's not about to roll over and die like some people apparently think it is.

Herbert Sitz
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Mad Dog --  Despite my immediately previous post, I do know what you mean. 

Back in the days when it felt like Philippe Kahn _was_ Borland and Bill Gates _was_ Microsoft, both were equally arrogant and, it seemed, fairly equally matched. 

We all know that Kahn -- and Borland -- lost out in that fight bigtime. 

But that was ten years ago for godsakes.  Let's look at what's happening right now.  And when you do look now, Borland seems to be doing much better than most people think.

Herbert Sitz
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Borland has always had superior development tools... easily above and beyond anything microsoft could come up with.

I don't think they were arrogant.  You do have to consider with microsoft driving the windows environment, Borland will lag behind in timeliness. 

My last Borland upgrade was C++ builder 5.0.  Microsoft visual anything is still a joke compared to it.  There are other upgrades available, but I think I am going to stop chasing them and will use this version until something really good comes along.

Joe AA
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

"Borland has always had superior development tools... easily above and beyond anything microsoft could come up with."

You know, back in the days of DOS I would have agreed with you completely. I absolutely loved Borland C++ 3.1. A great compiler, a solid IDE, great system to work in. At least for DOS, anyway - support for Windows development was there, but not within a windows IDE itself.

Borland promised a best-of-class C++ compiler for Windows 95, and when the shipped V 4.0, I jumped out, plunked down my cash, and got ... the worst peice of junk I'd ever had to pay for. The environment crashed every 15 minutes. I couldn't get any useful code out of it at all. There were a couple of patches which did nothing to improve the product.

When Borland finally got all the bugs fixed, what did they do? They called it version 4.5 and tried to charge me another $150 to get them! No thank you.

In the meantime, I'd tried VC++ 1.5, and it was a dream in comparison. VC 4 was great, and I've been on the Microsoft bandwagon ever since. VS.NET is shaping up to be a very productive environment for me.

Borland may have gotten better, but they lost a LOT of people like me to Microsoft with crappy products, and there's no incentive to go back.

Chris Tavares
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

>When Borland finally got all the bugs fixed, what did they >do? They called it version 4.5 and tried to charge me >another $150 to get them! No thank you.

Thats about around the time when Borland lost Anders Hjelsberg. Delphi 4, was bug ridden as well. Since then Borland recovered.

Look, who is charging me $150 anually for upgrades of their OS plattform, and think before you jump to conclusions.

Dont take the upgrades from one party as gospel while dizzing upgrades from another party.

just my 2 cents,

Patrik
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

>>Borland has always had superior development tools...
>>easily above and beyond anything microsoft could come up with.

They did once. Back in the late DOS/ early Windows days, Borland's C/C++ compiler/IDE was way better than MS. Their GUI framework (ObjectWindows? I can't remember the name) was even better than MFC 1.0, as long as you weren't too offended by the non-standard language extensions it added to C++.

What happened? MS caught up. Borland was slow to market with a Windows IDE, and the world switched over.

The C++ compiler war was won on merit.

It's classic MS. They have the resources to absorb being the inferior product for a few releases, then they catch up to and surpass an until then complacent market leader (Wordperfect, Borland, Netscape).

Andrew Reid
Wednesday, August 07, 2002

Delphi 4 indeed was buggy without updates, but the updates were free and the product was perfect after that. In Delphi 5 they took the approach that the product will be released only when it will be ready and it was great.


Ander's left Borland to MS after Delphi 3 if am not mistaken
(Refer http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/features/2000/jul00/07-03engineers2.asp ) He joined in 1996, possibly soon after Delphi 2, and Borland still makes great developer tools FYI.

Borlands Java IDE is still considered one of the best in the world. And its been surviving all the FUD spread since Anders left.

Sunish
Thursday, August 08, 2002

BC++ 4.0 was the worst ever. Charging for 4.5 was a crime. The C++ builder environment (only tried 4.0) is a good C++ RAD tool, which VC++ was not at that time.

To the guy who pays 150$ a year on OS upgrades:

What is that for? Do you buy every RedHat release on CD? I ran NT 4.0 for 5 years and will maybe do the same with 2000. All the interim (SP) releases are free. Maybe you should consider switching OS's :-).

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, August 08, 2002

If you look at Kylix - you can mention substantial difference between promiced benefits and actual reality. Instead of interoperability, you now have two libraries to learn, and one of them (CLX) is buggy and unstable.
So I would not expect Delphi 7 to be a universal solution - this will be just a bare minimum for Delphi code to work with .NET.
As I remember, Delphi 8 was promiced to be such a universal solution - something like "Best IDE for .NET". But its development will take time, and knowing that MS decided to do regular VS .NET updates - I don't think they will catch up.

Roman Eremin
Thursday, August 08, 2002

" The C++ builder environment (only tried 4.0) is a good C++ RAD tool, which VC++ was not at that time."

When did Microsoft released a RAD version of VC++? just wondering...

Leonardo Herrera
Thursday, August 08, 2002

...And then MS makes pascal#.net which is so similar to delphi a delphi coder can get productive with it in a matter of days. If delphi had just a bit more marketshare, they would have done so already..

Eric DeBois
Friday, August 09, 2002

"When did Microsoft released a RAD version of VC++? just wondering... "

Does managed C++ in VS.NET count?

Just me (Sir to you)
Friday, August 09, 2002

"Does managed C++ in .NET count?"

Nope, not at all. :-)

Managed C++ is, well... ugly is the most charitable term I can come up with. RAD is definately not my choice.

And besides, the forms designers only work with C# and VB, so you don't even get *that*.

Chris Tavares
Friday, August 09, 2002

Fastcompany had recently article about Borland's recovery.

Borland Software: Back in the Black
http://www.fastcompany.com/online/60/borland.html

msc
Monday, August 12, 2002

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