Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board




Hey, US developers, stop wining!

Does anybody here really understands what oursourcing is?
If you producing a code that is so dumb that it can be easily outsourced, then I wonder what are you doing in this forum.
It is rather hard to just outsource the development to India or Russia. I am a leader of such a team in Russia. And I'm desperate need several smart developers (maybe you better call them analysts or architects) from US side. There is a huge communication gap, so there is a good opportunity for people who can eliminate it.
My point is - if you wanted to be a code slave for the rest of your life - forget it. There going to be a lot of cheap code slaves. Times are changing. Now use your opportunity - you are closer to customers, than India (otherwise India would outsource you). You can now do more interesting work than dumb coding.
Are you sad because China produces most of goods for your country for cheap? I don't think so, because your people have more time to think and to create a job for Chineese.
(And I don't mean that Russian or Indian developers are dumb, I mean that all markets are in US and Europe, and they still need you).

Russian Developer
Tuesday, July 09, 2002

I have worked with a lot of foreign developers. There are good ones, and also a lot of not so good ones. Just like everywhere else. End let me tell you, if you're good you will not work for cheap.
I agree with everything said above...

German Developer
Tuesday, July 09, 2002

Damn right.

A US developer, who is embarassed and sick of the whining.

Nat Ersoz
Tuesday, July 09, 2002

wow.  This guy hit the nail right on the head.  I thin we should outsource from russia! Again, well said Russian Developer.

Vincent Marquez
Tuesday, July 09, 2002

Forget the russians ...
They suck at English...

Send it all to India.

Madras Gangster
Tuesday, July 09, 2002

I think some in the US don't notice that their competition is not "foreign" coders.  It's other Americans.  That is the market you compete in, against others most similar to you.  You want that market dried up, so the supply thins.

That said, when I looked at Beka's elance.com link, I was enchanted.  I'm jaded by programming being dominated by Americans, just all that kitsch about money.  Maybe all those endless posts demonizing non-US programmers gave me a sick feeling, and I think that was their goal.  But when I looked at the teams on elance, programming seemed stripped of that pompousness and hype.  It was Real.  I picked up my copy of Unix Programming Environment, and the little things seemed so intelligent.  "Creating simplicity from complexity, is harder to acheive." 

I'm rambling on, and don't really know why.

Sammy
Tuesday, July 09, 2002

> You want that market dried up, so the supply thins.

Being selfish about my job, I think I prefer to work with as many other good programmers as possible: better for the company that employs me, therefore better for me.

Christopher Wells
Wednesday, July 10, 2002

Glad to hear that a link I provided has been useful to somebody. :)

Outsourcing is no silver bullet, and I disagree with the author of the original post in many respects. I tend to think that outsourcing doesn't necessarily make jobs in Europe harder to come by. The demand is constantly increasing and there are always jobs for talented local developers. However I am extremelly wary of outsourcing, communication is key in software development and I have found outsourcing to degrade communication more often than not. But that's another story altogether.

Beka Pantone
Wednesday, July 10, 2002

It depends where your finger is pointing...

What would you outsource?
A small script install for your web site?
Your whole web site?
Some add-on/fix to a software package?
Your flagship product?

How much of the "work" do you outsource?

Code slavers (what is considered "dumb code"?)
Program design
etc.


Ask yourself some questions before thinking of outsourcing, and consider how much you can risk (as with anything that you might ot know how to handle, it's a question of success or failure).

Baruch
Sunday, July 14, 2002

Well, in my opinion, people talking about communication gap, about misunderstanding and such just pay not enough attention to understand the other side. Several quite simple techniques and hints can help a lot. One should just have desire to understand and not just get a contract, build software and farewell. From the perspective of successful outsourcing, both parties should
- be eager to cooperate, not just do what is requried
- understand the reason for which software is written
- verify mutual understanding at critical points 3 times from different point of views
- plan together, not independently
- be open to change (aware of any software product that was successfuly created as was planned initially? Tell me!)

These are just few things to note, but there are more. Just don't be stuck with public opinion. Two smart people always can come to the point.

PS: I'm leader of outsourcing software development company, if you mind.

Ilya Ryzhenkov
Monday, July 15, 2002

*  Recent Topics

*  Fog Creek Home