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PCWEEK Article

For those that still think the H1B issue, is purely fringe crack pots making noise, enjoy the following:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,299782,00.asp

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

[H1B Clouds from Fog Creek]
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=10547&ixReplies=25

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

[H1B WTF -- From Fog Creek]

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=9419&ixReplies=186

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

What's your point?

Now that we have more voters in, we can be justified in going out and shooting the bastards?

Joe AA.
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Joe,
just read the articles and draw your own conclusions!

The very last response to the PCWeek article is actually very telling.

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

By...

I did read the article.  The last entry is no more telling than any discussion we have had here, is just another opinion.

Sorry... maybe I don't get it.

Joe AA.
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

if you look at the rates the guy was quoting ....
the premise assumes a false ecomony. Where training engineers is basically free.  i.e. irrespective of the production cost of engineering talent, US developers should be willing to accept $15/hr even if the cost of educating themselves far exceeds any pay back at the grossless reduced rates.

A deflation of wages seems almost completely contrary to the  principle of continued economic expansion here at home.

In other words the model being proposed only works if we have large scale deflation of the cost of all goods in the system[housing, food, CEO compensation so on and so forth].

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Deflation!!!, ultimately resulting in a false economy.

Products appear cheaper, but at the same time one sees are dramactic redution in consumers purchasing power.
End result ... lots of WorldComs, Lucents, Significan employers dropping like flies.  Cheap labor is great ...., but when consumers can't buy even at the reduced rate, sounds like a formula for major ecomonic woes.


[Accordingly, I can find Web publishing services for $10 per hour, a far cry from the $100 per hour for American staff at the peak of the dot-com boom. I can now hire expert programmers for $15 per hour, and I see no downside to their being in India as opposed to San Jose.

This scenario is not limited to tech services. I can get telemarketing services, including all phone costs, offshore, for $5 per hour. I can find accounting services, and any other administrative services, for similarly low rates.
]

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Deflation results in a false economy?  Does that imply that inflation results in a "real" economy?

Ok, I ain't no economist. 

Even in this country of the USA about 20 years ago, $15-20 per hour for a contract programmer was darn decent money.  But today, even at $100 per hour, the value provided by that programmer resource is about the same. 

Some would say less... and watching most VB point and click coders... I would agree.

If the value of a programmer resource is worth $15 per hour to a company, than to pay more is to throw away money.  Businesses that throw away money don't stay in business too long.  If that means H1B, then so be it. 

But you are fooling yourself if you believe is the primary cause.  Just an easy scapegoat.  The primary cause are those programmer rates that exceed the value of a programmer to the business. 

You can't force someone to pay more for less value.

Joe AA.
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Agreed in an ideal world!!
However why do you think governments[specifically US] maintain price floors on specific strategic goods/services?

Not a trick question.  Think about it.

[You can't force someone to pay more for less value.
]

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Why don't we just outsource every job in the US? Since it is cheaper right?


Because we would have no money to spend, ergo the false economy.

It's a tough issue to tackle and I don't envy the politicians.

ac
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Actually it's the reverse.
Sustained economic Deflation is something to be avoided at all costs.

[Deflation!!!, ultimately resulting in a false economy]

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Good analogy AC.

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Joe A.A,

You are right. It looks like the normal value of highly qualified developers is $25,000/year. US people had better get used to it.

Agreed - there is certainly no high tech shortage.

But we still need more H1b programmers! Many more! The fact is that H1b programmers are critical to the economic health of this nation. We must be able to have programming done for $25,000/year or our companies will go bankrupt. They will not be able to compete in the global marketplace.

Competant US citizens are not willing to work for that rate since it is not enough to pay back their student loans and stay current in the field. Nor are they willing to put in the weekly hours needed at that rate. They are simply not dedicated enough - not hungry enough. It's therefore necessary that all development positions be filled with H1B workers. And why shouldn't we do so? The fact is, the vast majority of H1B programmers were educated for free by the US government at US universities. Our universities HAVE to accept all foreign students in engineering programs because US students just don't have what it takes to understand the program due to the poor state of the US primary and secondary education systems. Anyone who has graduated from a US university within the last 10 years can attest to the simple fact that there are very very few students who are enrolled in engineering. Students, proctors, TAs, and professors -- very few are US born. Of course the positions must be filled and since only fereign students have what it takes, it only makes sense that the US taxpayer pay for their education. Only 14% of foreign students make even a single payment on their federally guaranteed student loans. And why should they? The US is benefitting from their expertise.

Lazy Americans, get out of the way and let the H1Bs do their business!

Globetrotter
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

"However why do you think governments[specifically US] maintain price floors on specific strategic goods/services?"

Oh I know... don't like it, but know.

Joe AA.
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

>But today, even at $100 per hour, the value provided by that programmer resource is about the same.

Joe,

Where can I sign up for the $100/hr rate? Does Microsoft pay that? Working 60 hours a week as is typical for an American engineer I'll make $312,000/year. Or wait -- is that a union rate? With overtime I'll be pulling in $364,000.

Wow! I didn't know that's how much the average US engineer is paid! Everyone should be so lucky to be a high paid american engineer!

Ed the Millwright
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Globetrotter,

I doubt H1B's could live on $15/hr in any major american city.

So one would recommend not being short sighted about your comments.

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

"Lazy Americans, get out of the way and let the H1Bs do their business! "

Haha. Good troll. I'll bite

We aren't lazy. We are forced to work in an economy where it costs us $300k for a house in the suburbs (living in the city is out of the question) and since we live in the suburbs it costs us money to pay for transportation. That transportation costs money.

My point is this: we aren't asking for high salaries for the sake of being greedy. We ask for them because we are forced to work in a society that has a high cost of living.

It's sad how you associate that with laziness. I would love to see you come here (Washington DC) and live for 25k/year. You'd be eating Ramen noodles every night in a hovel. Or you could optionally live 2 hours away. Kind of hard to get used to a 4 hour commute I bet.

ac
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Good article on Deflation:
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/nov2001/pi20011112_3506.htm

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Globetrotter, AC's point is very relevant.
I sense you already know this.  Clearly every american engineer you've worked with isn't lazy.

It's like saying india is basically under developed because indians are lazy.  There's more to it than that.

By The Numbers
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Globetrotter - you say that companies will go bankrupt without h1b's. But American programmers will go bankrupt *with* the h1b program. American programmers are part of the economy and part of America and are entitled to have their part of the economy maintained at the same level as applies for other professions and management.

If h1bs are educated for free by the American system, and also don't repay their student loans, then American programmers are entitled to ask why their economic competitors are being funded by their own tax dollars.

On the subject of many university positions being filled by non-Americans, Prof George Borjas of Harvard's School of Public Policy has a fascinating article on the dangers in this, including its impact on native students.

http://www.nationalreview.com/issue/borjas061702.asp

Finally, this debate is of course not about the American economy as an homogenous entity; it's about corporate management increasing their slice of the pie while highly trained programmers get less. Do you know that, before HP announced its 1,000s of sackings, 6000 managers received 6-figure bonuses?

Hugh Wells
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

ac,

I appreciate your reply. And I agree with you! But the thing is, you are arguing my point for me!

You said:
"We are forced to work in an economy where it costs us $300k for a house in the suburbs (living in the city is out of the question) and since we live in the suburbs it costs us money to pay for transportation. That transportation costs money. "

OK lazy is relative. A lazy person does less work for the same amount of money, or the same work for more money. That is certianly true of Americans compared to H1Bs, no?

I agree with you that 'lazy' americans want to live like this. What is average salary for fulltime workers in US? Is it $24,000? $15/hr is more than that to be sure! So most people in US live not as good as american engineer who 'needs' to live in fancy three bedroom $300,000 house with garage!

H1B does not need this. He is living in apartment in bunk bed with three other H1Bs. He sends most of his salary back home. He lives cheaply and does better work faster and higher quality with less bugs. Thus he contributes more to the US economy and keeps US tech alive! Because of H1B, US tech company does not need to move offshore. The US born engineer who 'requires' so much more salary instead is killing the company - it can no longer compete because big salaries required to live in fancy 1,300 square foot house in suburbs.

You said:
"My point is this: we aren't asking for high salaries for the sake of being greedy. We ask for them because we are forced to work in a society that has a high cost of living."

I agree 100% - but the society the H1B lives in (the same one) has a much lower cost of living because H1B does not require to live like you do to think middle class or getting by. Being able to send $12,000/year back home makes the H1B a hero to his family and very very wealthy when he returns. On the money an H1B makes and saves, he can start own business in India, and live in a much nicer house than your $300,000 one and have servants and cook and many things when he returns. Because he is willing to sacrifice in the short term. But the 'lazy' american wants to live in his suburb and does not know what sacrifice is.

You said:
"It's sad how you associate that with laziness. I would love to see you come here (Washington DC) and live for 25k/year."

Many thousands of people get by in Washington DC on less than that! But they have less demanding requirements.

The point I am making is that since H1Bs do not expect or require a bigger salary, they can save the US tech industry. Without them, all development and all patents and all IP and all innovation will move overseas and that will be the end of the US economy. It is a reality of the modern world that the US (and western European) developer is too expensive. Tariffs are gone, no more. All must compete on equal basis. If the going global rate for competant development is $20,000/year with all costs included, then a company whose costs are 5 times bigger will go out of business after a while. You can see this now at Worldcom - they have a product people want (broadband and telecommunication) but their costs hiring americans are too high. If they used more H1Bs they would still be in business, like intel and microsoft.

Globetrotter
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Globetrotter, do you know you're getting ripped off yourself? PR firms charge between six and 30 times what they're probably paying you.

I've been thinking about how a PR firm would handle this business of representing clients in internet discussion groups. They wouldn't do it using staffers because it takes too much time and is irregular. The couldn't use journalists because they would talk.

The ideal would be grad students in business schools - committed to a business career, looking for extra money, reasonable English skills. Globetrotter / Fence Jumper / h1b, you should go direct to the client! Think how much money you could make.

Hugh Wells
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

By the way, Globetrotter, I'm sure you're aware that Microsoft and Intel's pricing and thus revenue are market-driven, not cost-driven. That is, they are as high as the market will bear, rather than being just high enough to cover costs. Both these two great companies can support market-driven pricing because of their exceptionally strong brands. I'm sure you know this, Globetrotter. They also both have war chests of billions and are cash-rich.

It's not a bad argument, in debating terms, but completely invalid.

If h1bs's are such a meritorious asset, why hasn't a Microsoft or an Intel emerged in India or China? Those nations have billions more people.

Hugh Wells
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Unfortunately, many of the skills related to IT tasks (good percentage of programming, MIS, HelpDesk, Call centers) are getting commoditized. There is every reason to be angry about corporate policies and their sense of fairness. But the ground reality is that that stuff is available elsewhere, so companies go there (today india, tomorrow china). Some slowly, some quickly.

Interestingly, even H1Bs and other immigrants(permanent residents) are quite pissed off with the situation because they are forced to go back to their countries.

Unless you are very good AND useful to company in a very meaningful way, survival as a programmer is going to be tough. It is just that developers were heroes in 90s and it is getting difficult for us to accept the fact that our days are over. We are like steel workers, farmers etc..

H1B issue is only aggravating the problem. Sure, it is a concern for us but in the long run, there won't be any H1Bs, the job itself will go to another country.

just_observing
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

If h1bs's are such a meritorious asset, why hasn't a Microsoft or an Intel emerged in India or China? Those nations have billions more people

>> That is a very obvious and valid question. It is a question that lingers in many indians' minds.

I worked in a couple of indian software products' companies. These companies do some bodyshopping to get revenues but their real interest is to produce great products and sell like microsoft, oracle etc. One of the core issues those CEOs mentioned is *access to market*. Real action and money is here, not in India (Ask about pc penetration..simple, india is a poor country). Naturally, the needs and evolution happens here. So, for a long time you will not see any company in the scale of microsoft, intel. But this is a work in progress, infosys, wipro, tcs are getting big and lots of small products in niche areas are getting developed. Current status is- ideas,sales, marketing in US and the labor is in India.

just_observing
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

H1B is only one manifestation of the problem. The real issue is how do you stop transfer of jobs?

just_observing
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

There are a few reasons jobs haven't shipped abroad. 

* engineering and management issues
* market isn't that fluid
* why cut jobs, when you can simply expand?
* US job protectionism
* improved market for domestic hiring

The one negative is for companies that must absolutely cut costs because they can't expand.  But look at Sun -- they saved a bit of money internally by using roamable offices for many of their transient staff.  Add to that their use of India's Wipro for some things.

Sammy
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Has anyone in this discussion ever even been in the same room as a decent economics book?  If the business people understand technology as badly as the techies in this discussion understand economics, it's no wonder management always seems to have its head up its arse.

(Pardons to the one or two that actually do seem to have an understanding of reality)

Nuff Said
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Ed the Millwright,
"Wow! I didn't know that's how much the average US engineer is paid! Everyone should be so lucky to be a high paid american engineer! "

I'm not sure why you take a sarcastic tone...Looks like you missed the boat.  Everyone and their cousin was pulling in $100/hr (at least) during the boom.  Any programmer worth his salt, and interested in making money,was consulting for $250k+ for the past few years.  (sorry, no time and a half overtime)  It was commonplace.  honestly, it got quite boring to pull in $20k+ a month.  Where were you?  I feel sad that you think $100/hr is  lot of money.  Loads of programmers I know are pulling in $100/hr. 

Bella
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

i know consultants who still make more than $ 100 an hour; these guys have on an average abt 7 years of experience.

Prakash S
Thursday, July 04, 2002

[ Has anyone in this discussion ever even been in the same room as a decent economics book? If the business people understand technology as badly as the techies in this discussion understand economics, it's no wonder management always seems to have its head up its arse. ]

Let's complete the third side of that triangle.

The business people don't understand technology...
The technologists don't understand economics...
The economists don't understand ... business ... ???

Anyway. Nuff Said, what specific "economics textbook" arguments would you use to enlighten this debate?

Adrian

Adrian Gilby
Thursday, July 04, 2002

One needs to distinguish between bill rates, and what is actually payed to the consultant.

Many consultants work for "Consulting Firms", that may be charging $100-250/hrs for the consultant.

Where as in reality the actual engineer is being paid a marginal fraction of this rate.[$40-60/hr], with virtually no benifts. $40-60/hr is about $65-80K/yr depending on where you live.  It's certainly not exactly rich making.


[i know consultants who still make more than $ 100 an hour; these guys have on an average abt 7 years of experience.

]

By The Numbers
Thursday, July 04, 2002

"We are forced to work in an economy where it costs us $300k for a house in the suburbs "

Really? Who has a gun at your head? Maybe you should call the police.

1) You do not need to buy a $300k house in the suburbs;
2) Nobody is forcing you to work in the economy in which you are working

no, not really
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Bella,

It sounds like you're saying that as a consultant you are able to bill for about 60 hours a week? Am I getting this right? Are you then able to bill for every working hour? Is that the typical way things are done now?

Ed the Millwright
Thursday, July 04, 2002

(Intel & Microsoft)
"Both these two great companies can support market-driven pricing because of their exceptionally strong brands"

Uh. Yeah. So it has nothing to do with both of them being in near monopoly positions in their markets then?

barf
Thursday, July 04, 2002

By The Numbers:" Where as in reality the actual engineer is being paid a marginal fraction of this rate.[$40-60/hr], with virtually no benifts. $40-60/hr is about $65-80K/yr depending on where you live. It's certainly not exactly rich making."

These guys to a corp-to-corp with their clients, so they get paid what they bill. Regd, benifits they have to take care of their own insurance and stuff like that.

It is still good money!

Prakash S
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Thanks for the comment Adrian.  Just to be clear, let me say that I wasn't speaking about "economics textbooks."  A decent economics *textbook* is a rare find.  The kinds of arguments I'd put forth to add to this debate would be similar to those found in Henry Hazlitt's work, or better yet Frederic Bastiat.

For instance, when a producer is free to capitalize on a less costly alternative, wealth will naturally grow.  Why?  What the producer used to spend to build WidgetA can now be used to produce WidgetA and WidgetB.  Think about it.

The only people that gain by trying to put up barriers to this are the small (but identifiable) minority whose paychecks will suddenly start to feel a little lean.  Their gain is at the expense of everyone else, however, who have to pay more for a product than they should.  Since they are paying more for ProductA that leaves less over to also purchase ProductB.  Notice that this damages the consumer of ProductA as well as the producer of ProductB.  It also adds a tax burden to administer and enforce the barrier.  It politicizes things so we get representatives of this minority lobbying everyone and stuffing money into pockets to preserve the barrier.  In short, it shortchanges the many to benefit the few, and adds in a few nasty things on the side.

As to shipping work overseas, ask yourself why it is that they import oranges rather than growing them at the North Pole.  Why don't you have some orange farmer up there lobbying the government to put a stop to all this "importing of cheap oranges because they're going to drive me out of business?"  Because it's foolish to grow oranges at the North Pole, and everyone recognizes it. 

If it's sound reasoning to import oranges to the North Pole, then why is it not also sound reasoning to import software into the States, all else being equal?

Anyhow, if you really are interested in doing what's best for "the economy" rather than what's best for *your* economy, then you should be demanding that all trade barriers be removed.  You should be demanding that the companies that produce what you buy get their raw materials from the least expensive source available, even if it is some H1B schmuck or some guy overseas with a funny accent.

And if it's your economy you want to deal with, the solution is simple:  be more productive than the other guy.

P.S.  What gave ya the idea I was trying to build a triangle?

Nuff Said
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Proper context[Perhaps we should start outsourcing pilots?]:
What others make?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Deal They May Refuse

Southwest's 4,100 pilots want to renegotiate a 10-year contract, due to expire in 2004, this summer, to close a 35 percent pay gap over the next five years.

A veteran Southwest pilot makes $142 an hour, or $135,000 a year.

Profit sharing and stock options for the most tenured can add another $80,000, but Southwest's pilots still trail 737 jockeys at Delta, United and American.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/forbes_southwest_020703.html

Larry From Queens
Thursday, July 04, 2002

----------------------------------------------------------------------
If h1bs's are such a meritorious asset, why hasn't a Microsoft or an Intel emerged in India or China? Those nations have billions more people
---------------------------------------------------- Just Observing

Mainly because all their best staff are being poached by the Western market.  Wait until they are all sent home, having learnt all your american tricks.

It's only a matter of time.  Once upon a time the Japanese manufacturers visited Leyland (a British manufacturer) to see how to build cars.

Where is the british manufacturing now?

Globetrotter is right, people become less keen as the standard of living improves.  Could you convince an american 13 year old to make trainers?

Here in the UK we are having enough trouble persuading out teenagers to attend school.

Ged Byrne
Thursday, July 04, 2002

This Just In:

Tech Giants Woo India Developers in Web Battle

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020704/tc_nm/tech_india_developers_dc_1

>BANGALORE, India (Reuters) - Cheap hardware, free trips to the United States, all the popcorn you can eat -- life's a junket if you're a computer programmer in India.

...

>The courting is particularly competitive in India, where by some estimates more than 10 percent of the world's programmers work for some of the industry's lowest wages.
...
>Exports of software and allied services from India ignored a slowdown last year, growing 29 percent to $7.5 billion in the 12 months to March. The current year is expected to see a 30 percent rise despite a sagging recovery in the United States.

Aren't those numbers interesting!

>Underlining the importance of the industry, Microsoft Senior Marketing Manager Daniel Ingitaraj says the number of programmers in India is expected this year to equal the 500,000 to 550,000 in the United States.

Well imagine that!

>The huge number of programmers is one reason for the low wages.
>"There is an abundance of skills in Microsoft technologies. Because of this, the price at which you can hire the skills is lower," said Gopal Kulkarni, chief executive of Kendra Technologies, which makes software to help human resource managers sift job applications.
>In Bangalore, home to more than 1,000 software companies, you can hire a young programmer of Sun's Java language for around $200 a month -- less than a tenth of what a U.S. counterpart would cost.

OK, now I want to get down to business -- is it true that average wages for a US Java programmer are $200 x 10 = $2000/month = $24,000/year ?

I thought that was one of them hot skills?

Comments?

Ed the Millwright
Thursday, July 04, 2002

"It's only a matter of time. Once upon a time the Japanese manufacturers visited Leyland (a British manufacturer) to see how to build cars."

Leyland failedbecause they produced rubish and were inefficient with it. Their downfall had nothing to do with the Japanese imports.

TonyE
Thursday, July 04, 2002

"Where is the british manufacturing now?"

Where I live I have car factories to the west of me, car factories to the east of me, a car factory to the south of me, and to the north of me - a tractor factory that's being shut down by predatory American companies.

British manufacturing's having a rough time at the moment, but it's largely because the government only pays it attention when it kicks it to see if it's dead yet... rather than, say, erecting barriers to trade to stop people importing stuff made cheaper because the originating countries, say, don't have as many laws about stopping people falling in the steel vats.

There's a factory only just over the horizon still makes most of the world's fire engines...

Katie Lucas
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Ed the Millwright:  "It sounds like you're saying that as a consultant you are able to bill for about 60 hours a week? Are you then able to bill for every working hour?

I personally don't work 60 hours a week anymore.  The money is not that important to me anymore.  But yes, I do I know some consultants who have been capped at a per diem rate.  Previously, they would bill 80 hours if that's what they worked.  $30k a month was commonplace....I know handfuls of people in their 20's whose houses are paid off as a direct result of the consulting BONANZA.  Sounds like you missed the boat entirely.  Be glad you have a nice safe dayjob, b/c it sounds like you have absolutley no business instinct. 

Bella
Thursday, July 04, 2002

[Screwed up economics]
If they succeed, you can kiss any form[at any level] of IT related work here in the USA good bye!!!

It will ultimately even kill companies like Microsoft and the like.

I bet before that happens, the politicians will erect trade barriers.


http://www.cnn.com/2001/BUSINESS/asia/11/23/india.techforecasts/index.html?related

By The Numbers
Thursday, July 04, 2002

My Rationale is simply that the projected $87 Billion revenue target, will have to come from someone's pie!!!

from Microsoft's from IBM's from Apple's from Intels's, from SUN's etc...

By The Numbers
Thursday, July 04, 2002

just_observing, you're Globetrotter, right? Come back with a more collegial tone. And you're Nuff Said, too? And you're being paid to push this line as part of the lobbying effort.

And you're a grad student at a business school.

Hugh Wells
Thursday, July 04, 2002

If you want to be REAL RICH start your own company and worry about H1B later.

Larry Gates
Thursday, July 04, 2002

These arguments about oranges at the North Pole and cheap labor are misrepresenting both the motivations of large employers and the realities of Western economies.

The importing of cheap labor is not being done to improve the economy; it's being done to benefit one particular tiny group in society, at enormous cost to all other groups. The resulting cost savings are not flowing through to cheaper prices; they are retained as higher profits.

Participants in democracies are entitled to stop criminals stealing from them and damaging their careers and livelihoods. Simple.

If low wages are so good, let's put caps on CEO remunerations.

Hugh Wells
Thursday, July 04, 2002

I have started my own company and I'll worry about h1bs' now, thanks very much. You see, I respect my colleagues and my fellow citizens, and this is one of the factors that makes Western economies the enyy of the world.

And the reason many fine Indian and Chinese folks want to join those economies.

The attitudes of the current crop of greed merchants are the things that will destory Western economies.

Hugh Wells
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Katie, I'm sorry to hear the sorts of things you mention in your message coming from someone in the land where the industrial revolution was born.  If you look at British history, you'll note that the British industrial machine was the envy of the world at precisely the time when your government was least restrictive with trade barriers.  Think it through and you'll see why.  You'll also see why the sort of government interference you advocate can only rob your country of its wealth.  Good luck.

Nuff Said
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Hugh - all I can say is read my first post on this thread.  Cheers!

Nuff Said
Thursday, July 04, 2002

Hugh Wells, congrats!  I think you're the first to get this word right!  "remunerations".

Good luck on your enterprise!

Greg Kellerman
Friday, July 05, 2002

Anybody have some extra work that they would like outsourced to developers in India?

Hourly rates starting from $5/hr for HTML developers,
$10/hr for C++ developers
$30/hr for MIT trained Managers
$50/hr for London School of economics trained accounting auditors

Let me know and we can exchange contact information.

thanks S.H.K

Sanjay Kapoor
Friday, July 05, 2002

Boy the British Engineers must be Lazy and over paided these days!!

What do you say about this Jolly old chaps?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/05/technology/05HEWL.html

Legalize Whaling again
Friday, July 05, 2002

More news from the front....
Seems no one is safe!!!

Rumor has it that indians Killed Motorola

http://www.msnbc.com/news/776488.asp

Gent from Ilse of Man
Friday, July 05, 2002

Sanjay Kapoor,
Are those prices legitimate rates ?

Grass Eating Flesh Country
Friday, July 05, 2002

Grass Eating Flesh Country,
Completely Legit.
We can arrange for some discounts, depending on project scope and duration

Sanjay Kapoor
Friday, July 05, 2002

To Gent from Ilse of Man

Your link seems to lead to info about Qwest and not about Motorola.

FYI: there are quite a few indians working for Motorola, so I really don't see where you are going with this.

Prakash S
Friday, July 05, 2002

Yes Indeed Motorola is/was filled with "Super Brilliant" H1B Engineers!

I wonder what happened?
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/0,10801,72283,00.html


[To Gent from Ilse of Man

Your link seems to lead to info about Qwest and not about Motorola.

FYI: there are quite a few indians working for Motorola, so I really don't see where you are going with this.

Prakash S

]

Gent From Isle Of Man
Friday, July 05, 2002

To Gent from Ilse of Man

it doesn't say anything abt indians.

Prakash S
Friday, July 05, 2002

Look what we have here:
http://www.theindianprogrammer.com/forum_toc.htm

And they seemed so cute too!!

Pierre Le'Bleu
Saturday, July 06, 2002

Bidding starts at $5[usd] when developers purchased in twin-packs

http://www.projectspring.com/freelance/index.html

Pierre Le'Bleu
Saturday, July 06, 2002

http://www.theindianprogrammer.com/_forum/00000178.htm

USD exchange rate is 50:1  That means:

0-1 year =  Rs.  8,000 - Rs 15,000  ($166-$312 / year)
1 - 2 Years Rs. 15,000 - Rs 20,000 ($312 - $416)
2 - 4 Years Rs. 20,000 - Rs 50,000 ($416 - $1041)


I will leave it up to the reader to draw his own conclusions.....

Bella
Sunday, July 07, 2002

Yeah it's called dumping!!!
Who the hell can keep body and mind together for $1041/yr, here in  the US?

Secondly they obviousky can't be that good even with exchange rate normalized salaries.
[Well I suppose it explains why they want to come to US schools for computer sci education!!!]




[USD exchange rate is 50:1 That means:

0-1 year = Rs. 8,000 - Rs 15,000 ($166-$312 / year)
1 - 2 Years Rs. 15,000 - Rs 20,000 ($312 - $416)
2 - 4 Years Rs. 20,000 - Rs 50,000 ($416 - $1041)


I will leave it up to the reader to draw his own conclusions.....

Bella

]

XP Man
Sunday, July 07, 2002

those are not the correct figures.

FOB's from college get around 10000 - 15000 Indian Rupees PER MONTH( 1 USD = INR 49.85). These are from "Blue Chip" companies like Infosys(INFY) , Wipro(WIT), Cognizant(CTSH).

These companies are similar to companies like Microsoft.

These pay scales are in the top 25 percentile with respect to other companies in India.( I read this somewhere, just can't remember where.)

Prakash S
Sunday, July 07, 2002

It's a commoditization of software engineers - turn them into widgets. Switch them, pay them ALAP (as little as possible).

Can it work? Why not seek a cheaper CEO?

A.
Wednesday, July 10, 2002

Of course it's can stupid!!!
In as much as people might wish it,  software development is an ART.  It requires great expenditures of intellect, and unmeasureable doses of inspired insight.

It can never be reduced to levels similar to that of a common laboror drone.[Try as they might]. 

If you look most of those sites ... they create toys and call it development :-)!!

As the level of complexity increases, the model quickly falters.  Why?  gee because complexity actually requires slivers of original thought!!! WOW what a concept.


What is rather insulting about the entire concept, is the wholesale assumption that developers are stupid/gullable.
I mean who in their right minds would develop a killer product, then willing sign away legal rights to share in the rewards, for just a bit of pocket money!!

Prediction:  elance.com and others like it will fail.

Affinity = 1|2|4|8
Wednesday, July 10, 2002

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