Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board




Welcome! and rules

Joel on Software

Lots of .net topics, but lack of knowledge

This joel guy does not seem to have an accuarate grasp of the .net framwork for a site with tons of .net posts.  He doesn't seem to have the mindset of a qualified .net programmer.  I dont think he understands the pros/cons of a runtime vs. native code.

i quote forom joel's article
"...let me make a single EXE that runs on any computer with Win 98 or later and no other external dependencies"

any WINDOWS computer! .net is built like java is, with portablitity in mind, so that the same program without recompilation can be run on any OS (*nix,mac,win) via the runtime on each platform.  Try running your precious exe on a mac or nix without a vm.

Hey, i like native code better, because of the much greater performance, but a runtime adds things like garbage collection for memory management, which is a nice programmer feature, though it seems to make the language less powerful to be safe for weaker programmers.


he was slashdotted and ripped, uniformed rampant ranting
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/31/2027235

JRSiebz
Wednesday, February 04, 2004

In all honesty I think the problem was chiefly that none of the software vendors mentioned so far (Sun, MS, and say GNU) has come out with a platform neutral programming framework that produces simple single file executables that just works out of the box. To users this is important, it as as important as finding the steering wheel and seat belts and the ignition key in the same bloody place regardless of which vehicle you enter.

Li-fan Chen
Wednesday, February 04, 2004

"To users this is important."

No it's not. Users don't care whether Word runs on Linux, UNLESS they're running Linux. Since they're by and large running Windows, they only care whether Word runs on Windows.

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Wednesday, February 04, 2004

My 0.2c.

"No it's not. Users don't care whether Word runs on Linux, UNLESS they're running Linux. Since they're by and large running Windows, they only care whether Word runs on Windows."

Yes, they do care.  Why do most home/casual users not want to go to Linux? Top reason: no applications that they are familiar with currently are properly ported or emulated [don't even get me started on w[h]ine et al - and no, having Outlook and Excel acting like a drunk monkey on speed is NOT properly emulated].  .NET and Java have an excellent concept that should be extended to allow cross-platform COMPILED distribution of some form or other.  As otherwise it's just horrible bloatware for a desktop user.

John Traverse
Friday, February 06, 2004

"Why do most home/casual users not want to go to Linux?"

Every non-geek home user I know has absolutely NO interest in doing anything with Linux. Ever. It's a delusion to believe that there are these legions of hundreds of millions of users who are frustrated over their inability to use Linux.

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Friday, February 06, 2004

Most users don't even know they're running windows.  They just want innernet, google and that word thing.  They'll buy a pc and use what comes with it until the end of its life.

Just as they don't care about linux,  they also couldn't give two hoots about windows.

Koz
Monday, February 09, 2004

>.net is built like java is, with portablitity in mind, so that the same program without recompilation can be run on any OS (*nix,mac,win) via the runtime on each platform.

Um, not to gush about "This joel guy" (disclaimer: I am a big fan of JOS), and not that he needs any defending, but I'm pretty sure he knows that ( http://joel.spolsky.com/resume.htm ).  The article you were referring to was about the *inconvenience* of having to deal with that runtime in the case of consumer downloadable software.  The installation of the .Net runtime is not trivial for consumers.

I don't know if a linker would ever be possible for a virtual machine dependent platform like Java (I am clueless as to the internals of compilers / VMs / and the CLR), but apparently it is for .Net, as evidenced by these guys: http://www.remotesoft.com/linker/ .  The article was entitled, "Please sir, may I have a linker."

McSqueeb
Monday, February 09, 2004

"He doesn't seem to have the mindset of a qualified .net programmer.  I dont think he understands the pros/cons of a runtime vs. native code."

I don't think Joel needs defending on this one but I have personal experience on this one (for the exact reason that Joel wrote his article in the first place).  I work for a government agency and I wrote this really cool (and very small) program with C# that performed some simple functions that everybody I work with has to perform every day (on paper - ugh).  The problem here is the user.  For us programmers, sure, .NET is great and the runtime is an excellent idea.  For my user's (the people who still have the 'connect to the internet' icon on their desk, double click on EVERYTHING,  and have a home email address that ends with @aol.com), the idea of downloading a 20 meg 'program' (with a dial-up connection) BEFORE downloading my 300k program is a monumental waste of time.  In VS6, I could write it, publish it, and feel fairly confident that all of my Windows users would be able to run it from their desktop. 

In programming terms, I LOVE .NET.  When considering cost and technical support, .NET can be a royal pain in the booty.

OneKidney
Friday, March 12, 2004

"For my user's, ... the idea of downloading a 20 meg 'program' (with a dial-up connection) BEFORE downloading my 300k program is a monumental waste of time.  In VS6, I could write it, publish it, and feel fairly confident that all of my Windows users would be able to run it from their desktop"

Um, yes, But that's only because the VB6 runtime ships with the OS now. Before that, the VB6 runtime had to be installed on the machine first. Not quite 20Mb, but not trivial either. Anyone remember making setup apps for VB5 and 6 that had to include the runtime?

With this in mind, I'm not sure I get the point of your posting. Certainly, I'm not convinced that having a pre-installed runtime justifies using VB6 in favour of .Net

Ivan Cronyn
Monday, March 15, 2004

*  Recent Topics

*  Fog Creek Home