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Using the wrong software

Hey folks.  Going through the FogBugz forum I came to the realization that we're using the wrong software.

Just look at how closely the Fog Creek monitor and post to that forum:

Topic 1-Dmitri (1 post)
Topic 2-Dmitri (3 posts)
Topic 3-Joel (2 posts)
Topic 4-Joel and Dmitri (1 post each)
Topic 5-Michael H. Pryor (1 post)
Topic 6-Micchael H. Pryor (1post) Dmitri (2 posts)
Topic 7-Joel (1 post)
Topic 8-Dmitri (1 post)
Topic 9-Michael H. Pryor and Dmitri (1 post each)
Topic 10-Dmitri (1 post)

I have never seen the Fog Creek group post as fervently about CityDesk. I have never seen responses to feature requests on the CityDesk forum like those on the FogBugz forum.

When I look at the focus they have on FogBugz and consider the lack of any kind of communication on this forum, I see a company focused on one product: FogBugz.  I may be wrong but I think CityDesk gets second billing and only occasional focus.

David Burch
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

I'll rest my case. (see my previous post)

PeterM
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

David,

You beat me to it. I was wondering just the same thing when posting to the previous thread. My line of thinking may have been a little different though ~ I was going to post to the effect that CD is simply an income source from a product FC built for internal use. That being true (a whopping big assumption) we get an update when they see a need to update (as the Brits would say) Full Stop. Having said all that, I don't really believe it to be true BUT I was going to do a little snooping around to see how far off the mark the theory was ~ you beat me to it :)

Now, the level of communication *may* be indicative of the level of difficulty or number of problems that people are having with the product ~ they spend a lot of time there because they *have* to. CD OTOH has a lot of people who frequent this site and can handle the situations that come up without intern intervention.

Either way noticing it isn't likely to change things much ~ this *is* a pretty slow (as in not a lot of posts for help) group.

PNII

Perpetual Newbie II
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

PNII,

If you look back--which this forum makes it hard to do--this forum does not get the attention FogBugz does, even during a CityDesk beta, after a release, or at any point when questions, bug reports, or feature requests are high.

David Burch
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

David,

I can't argue your point, not at all. I'm sure FC has all the reason it needs for it's allocation of resource issues ~ same as it does for it's other policies and practises.

PNII

Perpetual Newbie II
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

Apples and oranges

The Fogbugz platform can be Windows (server), Unix or Mac (both of which are relatively recent new releases previously unavailable). It uses SQL Server or MySQL database. This is a completely different world to desktop support and that forum is a very effective way of providing (some of) the support required to customers at low cost.

The FC contributions on the FogBugz forum are supporting the product, not statements about planned features. A lot of the comments here are "I would like" or "can I do this" where the answer is no without JavaScript or PHP coding. Also consider FogBugz is a more mature product.

I'm not trying to cover for FC and agree comments about the forum. But a lot of posts for CityDesk shouldn't need to be answered by FC - CityDesk is a doddle - and if the answer isn't found via TK's site then I'm sure the problems and how-to questions can be answered from amongst ourselves (they do seem to be).

Dan
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

I imagine the support agony if CityDesk required a server, and worked with multiple data bases and operating systems.  That would suck up a lot of resources devoted to features.

Quite a few feature requests have suggested that CityDesk do those very things.

tk
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

Dan, nice post.

Perpetual Newbie II
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

but from a different perspective altogether (for the sake of argument) - it's not apples and oranges at all ~ it's bananas.

As a CD customer I shouldn't have to care that FC has other irons in the fire. I shouldn't be motivated to be compassionate by fact that these product(s) are (or are not) causing them grief either. They have to support all their products or face the inevitable erosion of the customer base with the products *they* choose to ignore. Yes, I know you can still get support, and yes there isn't any known customer base erosion, that I'm aware of - at this point.

The solution is really quite simple ~ take part in the community. Respond to the "can I do this" and "I'd like to see that" posts ... start an OT conversation ~ just be involved. Worst case scenario (this was already quashed by Joel 3/4 months ago - I'm using it for effect) CD could be dead for about two or three years and we'd never know it. You can still shell out the pat policy answers when asked about features and releases - just take part in the community ~ you created it.

Perpetual Newbie II
Thursday, July 15, 2004

You can speculate as long as you like. It’s not worth the effort and we, as a small group of nobodies  “are not worth it” – to rephrase a well-known commercial.

Jorgen B.
Thursday, July 15, 2004

re: Using the wrong software

I have a suggestion -- those that are interested in  using  "great software" should [after July 19, 2004] take a very serious look at Encore Pro. http://biitsoft.com/products/cmsencorepro/index.htm

David Mozer
Thursday, July 15, 2004

Hmmm, are they releasing a new trial version as well ???

Perpetual Newbie II
Thursday, July 15, 2004

"are they releasing a new trial version as well"

I don't know, but the part about the "great software" is certainly true.

PeterM
Friday, July 16, 2004

And you can see on the Biitsoft forum, from the developers of Encore, found here http://biitsoft.com/forums/index.php that they really listen to the users.

PeterM
Friday, July 16, 2004

Idea:

Why don't we post our questions and requests about CD on the FogBUGZ forum. We would sure be noticed there? ;-)

PeterM
Friday, July 16, 2004

PeterM,

That's a great idea.

David Burch
Friday, July 16, 2004

ROFL, when was the last time either of you had to *ask* a question about CD?

PNII

Perpetual Newbie II
Friday, July 16, 2004

For your information,

I aksed for a reply about this thread on the FogBUGZ forum, but is was deleted. I should have known this would happen. This time the response time from the FC folks was excellent. ;-)

PeterM
Friday, July 16, 2004

PNII,

It's been a while.  Most questions were about stupid mistakes I made or features not supported by CD.  CD has a pretty limited feature set and new questions don't often come up once you have explored all the possibilities (I've built more than a few sites using CD, for myself and others).

I have to agree that the users of this forum answer most questions about the use of the program.  What irks me is the lack of feedback: feedback on feature requests not implemented, feedback on bugs reported but not fixed, and feedback on the general direction of the product. 

David Burch
Friday, July 16, 2004

Yea, my comment was TIC but I see you knew that.

Perpetual Newbie II
Friday, July 16, 2004

Well , I can understand the policy of FC, not to announce features, that will maybe become reallity sometimes. But I think, the guys have to do a little bit more for their money. I wrote to FC with he complaint, that a lot of shareware-author are more present in forums belonging to their products than the guys from FogCreek.

Here's the answer of Dmitri: "We've been hard at work on the next version for some time now, including translating the entire program into German - we will then more easily be able to create versions in many different languages. "

Alphonse
Sunday, July 18, 2004

Here,
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/FogBUGZ/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=4087&ixReplies=5, Dmitri responded to a bug report with "That's a known bug, it will be fixed in a future release."

I would like similar feedback on this forum.  It would let me know that they are serious about this product and pay attention to bug reports (CityDesk 2.0 did not fix all the bugs reported in the forum).

David Burch
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

Joel just posted to this forum: http://discuss.fogcreek.com/CityDesk/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=12859&ixReplies=2

David Burch
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

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